(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2018-01-13]
PC[OGS: https://online-go.com/game/11261561]
GN[Дружеский матч]
PB[OSINOV]
PW[walken!]
BR[15k]
WR[11k]
TM[420]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
RE[W+0.5]
SZ[9]
KM[0.5]
RU[Japanese]
HA[2]
AB[gc][cg]
;W[dd]
(;B[cd]
(;W[cc]
(;B[ce]
(;W[bc]
(;B[ec]
(;W[db]
(;B[ee]
(;W[ff]
(;B[fg]
(;W[gg]
(;B[eg]
(;W[ge]
(;B[gd]
(;W[hd]
(;B[fe]
(;W[hf]
(;B[ef]
(;W[gf]
(;B[hc]
(;W[id]
(;B[ic]
(;W[fb]
(;B[fc]
(;W[gh]
(;B[fh]
(;W[af]
(;B[bf]
(;W[ae]
(;B[ag]
(;W[bd]
(;B[be]
(;W[ad]
(;B[bg]
(;W[ha]
(;B[eb]
(;W[ea]
(;B[gb]
(;W[dc]
(;B[fa]
(;W[da]
(;B[ed]
(;W[dh]
(;B[dg]
(;W[fi]
(;B[ei]
(;W[gi]
(;B[eh]
(;W[ga]
(;B[fb]
(;W[de]
(;B[bb]
(;W[ab]
(;B[ba]
(;W[ca]
(;B[hb]
(;W[df]
(;B[cf]
(;W[]
(;B[ia]
(;W[]
(;B[]
C[walken!: wow, so close
walken!: thanks for the game
walken!: after review I'm not sure if the upper left was supposed to be a seki
walken!: yup :(
walken!: we both thought black was dead, and the autoscorer thought so too
walken!: I'm not sure how the autoscorer works or when it doesn't
walken!: anyway, I just wanted confirmation as I didn't read it correctly at first
walken!: what is supposed to happend with scoring if there is a ko at the very end of the game ?
walken!: ah no, it's not a scoring issue, one of the side is just prevented from playing there
walken!: 65 is different from 60 because it's now black's turn
walken!: yes. a9 is not legal the second time around so white has to pass and that's the final position, with the two black stones still live 
walken!: so I lost after all
walken!: (the other thing I don't understand is that the score estimate had me losing anyway, so I was really surprised to edge out a win)
walken!: yes. I probably trust it too much.
walken!: other question is after move 52, was it possible to get unconditional life ?
walken!: allright. no regrets then.
walken!: yes, it's like when you don't like your neighbors :)
walken!: all right, thanks for the comments.
walken!: 57 c8 kills black
walken!: yes
walken!: you just need to know it's seki :)
walken!: and same, opponent should play 56 d4. actually should do it even if he doesn't know about the seki.
walken!: people get confused about scoring :)
walken!: well it's especially confusing given that when you think the game i done, you have to pass but your opponent may still sneak a move on you
walken!: so you feel like you have to defend even though you think it's all done
walken!: right
walken!: all right. time for me to grab some zZzzZzzz. ttyl :)
Flopsy: yep, a half-pointer
Flopsy: it's not a seki, and wasn't scored as such
Flopsy: oh wait
Flopsy: sorry
Flopsy: it is a seki
Flopsy: now that the liberties are filled up
elx: [object Object\]
Flopsy: don't trust it, especially with seki
Flopsy: typically seki must be marked manually
elx: [object Object\]
Flopsy: [object Object\]
Flopsy: that reverts to the original position, with one net prisoner for black
Flopsy: still seki
elx: Then it's ko
elx: ko isn't equal to seki I guess
Flopsy: depending on the rule set, it could be
Flopsy: but typically this isn't ko either
elx: I prefer absolute ko rule
Flopsy: usually superko is not used
elx: no position can be repeated with same side turn
elx: that's different in various rule systems
elx: Then you can't play A8 wit white
elx: [object Object\]
Flopsy: white was in atari after the capture
Flopsy: a8 is a really really bad move by black
Flopsy: white can gain nothing by filling any of these liberties, is the point
elx: So yes, with superko rule white can't take black stones
Flopsy: yes
Flopsy: [object Object\]
Flopsy: can't a8 after going through the cycle
Flopsy: so can't escape atari the second time around
Flopsy: score estimation can be weird, anyway
Flopsy: especially on a 19x19
Flopsy: SE is typically some sort of heat map kind of thing. It isn't middle-game aware, especially in the center and in fights
Flopsy: at that point it's too late
Flopsy: [object Object\]
Flopsy: seki is unconditional life, it's just not a happy way to live
Flopsy: no territory to call your own :)
elx: Black is filling his own liberties
elx: So... what is final score here if we use area scoring?
elx: White 6*3+1 on the right, and ...
elx: 4*5-1 on left, not counting seki
Flopsy: typically you'd score the live stones in area scoring
Flopsy: even though it's seki
Flopsy: and often the eye at a7 as well
Flopsy: so it's more like 17 on the left for white
Flopsy: and 2 for black in that seki
elx: 35 total for white?
Flopsy: 17 + 19, in area scoring, I think
Flopsy: c8 is self-atari
Flopsy: oh, at move 57
Flopsy: yes, butter to use that liberty while you can
Flopsy: make 4 or 5 points, rather than 1
Flopsy: yes
Flopsy: seki robs all the territory, so there's usually a bigger difference than late late yose
Flopsy: which is the quest for 1-pointers
Flopsy: black is a deep beginner
Flopsy: I'm actually surprised that he tried b8
Flopsy: this black is a player who I'd say was making moves that are explicit passes
Flopsy: scoring can be confusing, the more you attend to minute differences
Flopsy: the basic rule of thumb is that seki is ignored when estimating with territory and prisoners
elx: This variation says black wins by 4.5, if you let black take c4 point
elx: But remove seki
Flopsy: um, yes
Flopsy: you have to fill 2 points of territory, you miss out on d5, and in that variation I think you have some of black's passes eliminated
Flopsy: those moves where black fills his own territory for no good reason cost a point each
elx: Only in japanese rules which are used here
Flopsy: the scoring for this game is officially japanese
Flopsy: I was quoting in that system, and comparing with the game score
Flopsy: japanese is something of a default online
Flopsy: western go associations often try some sort of compromise system that is easy to score whichever system you are used to.
elx: Japanese favors risky states
Flopsy: how so? Not especially, I think
Flopsy: far more decisive is culture
Flopsy: well, that's just what happens when the two players disagree about life and death
Flopsy: just because your opponent things something is forcing, doesn't mean you have to agree, of course :)
Flopsy: as you gain in strength, these encore invasions tend to dissappear
Flopsy: because again, the big attempts typically should have been tried earlier, if at all
Flopsy: and players who have been consistently reading throughout the game should be in agreement about what's dead and what's alive at the end
Flopsy: it's implicit in the way they've played
Flopsy: later, then
Flopsy: no problem
]
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