(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2025-01-02]
PC[OGS: https://online-go.com/game/70992478]
GN[Friendly Match]
PB[scotto]
PW[sigue]
BR[6k]
WR[2k]
TM[604800]OT[5x86400 byo-yomi]
RE[W+R]
SZ[19]
KM[0.5]
RU[Japanese]
HA[4]
AB[dd][pp][pd][dp]
;W[qf]
(;B[nc]
(;W[rd]
(;B[qj]
(;W[qn]
(;B[qo]
(;W[pn]
(;B[nq]
(;W[oj]
(;B[qh]
(;W[pi]
(;B[pg]
(;W[oe]
(;B[pf]
(;W[pe]
(;B[qd]
(;W[qe]
(;B[ng]
(;W[nd]
(;B[oc]
(;W[ld]
(;B[md]
(;W[me]
(;B[mc]
(;W[qi]
(;B[lg]
(;W[le]
(;B[mj]
(;W[lc]
(;B[rc]
(;W[fc]
(;B[cf]
(;W[jg]
(;B[kf]
(;W[kh]
(;B[lh]
(;W[kj]
(;B[dj]
(;W[mk]
(;B[jf]
(;W[if]
(;B[ig]
(;W[ki]
(;B[ie]
(;W[hf]
(;B[jd]
(;W[rh]
(;B[he]
(;W[dc]
(;B[cc]
(;W[ed]
(;B[ge]
(;W[de]
(;B[hg]
(;W[cd]
(;B[df]
(;W[fq]
(;B[eq]
(;W[fp]
(;B[cn]
(;W[lq]
(;B[mq]
(;W[lp]
(;B[fn]
(;W[eo]
(;B[dn]
(;W[en]
(;B[em]
(;W[fm]
C[scotto: How's the Crafting Interpreters project going?
]
(;B[fl]
(;W[gm]
C[sigue: It's a bit stalled right now. Everyone has been on vacation, plus I've been concentrating a bit on my other project...trying to get another release of opendylan.org out the door.
]
(;B[el]
C[scotto: Cool. Looks like I can install opendylan from the Arch user repository. :-)
scotto: The package is dated Oct 2020
sigue: oooh, I would bet that is a fairly old release.  Yeah.
scotto: yeah, 4+ years. 
sigue: We don't have an arch package person anymore.
sigue: Want a new job?  :)
scotto: It's read text, so I'm assuming it's sort of orphaned at the moment
scotto: I think that's above my pay grade :-)
]
(;W[gl]
C[sigue: I haven't looked into arch at all. I got the impression from the ether that it's a compile-everything-from-source-all-the-time distro or something like that?
scotto: I use EndeavourOS
scotto: which is based on arch
scotto: but pacman installs from the arch rep
scotto: seems like most stuff isn't building and compiling every update
scotto: A couple things do, like Brave browser
sigue: It's a different world.  I look at the Endeavor website and am not even sure how to download it. :)
sigue: How goes the Lisp hacking?  
scotto: I don't recall it being too bad. but I've messed with linux distros off and on for several years
scotto: It's ok.
scotto: about 14 chapters into PCL book
sigue: Nice. That's a lot.
scotto: It's the file i/o chapter
scotto: so once I get through that, i'll probably start trying out some of the advent stuff or project euler 
scotto: also done about 12/13 of the lessons or roughly 75 koans
scotto: i guess 30-40%
scotto: decided i didn't like F6, but couldn't decide where I wanted to play ....
]
(;B[lk]
C[scotto: so is the dylan update for folks still using Newton's or for general programming?
sigue: It's for general programming. To be honest, your question worries me a little bit because it makes me think we need to clarify something on the website.  Dylan was never actually deployed to the Newton.
sigue: Apple Dylan ran on the Macintosh (perhaps mac OS 6 first?). Now it's Windows and various Unix varieties.
scotto: Ah.
sigue: and macOS
scotto: I'd never heard of Dylan until tonight
sigue: It has a miniscule user base. It just never really took off. Great language, though, IMO.
scotto: I did have Mac's back in the day. Fat Mac, then a Plus, and a permorma
scotto: If I want to check it out, do you think that arch package would be OK
sigue: If it works, it should be fine. We move at a slow pace, so the 2020 version isn't that different.
scotto: I'll check it out and let you know if it works
scotto: I use NeoVim for my coding
scotto: I assume I don't need some particular IDE
sigue: Sounds good. I toy with the idea of figuring out how to package for arch, debian, homebrew, etc., but usually some other priority takes precedence.
sigue: On Linux is just command-line. I (and others) have done work on an LSP server that should work with VS Code and emacs, but otherwise it's just command-line.
scotto: ah, that's fine
scotto: I don't mind command-line stuff at all
scotto: spent plenty of time in the old days with nothing but that 
sigue: There's a somewhat dated IDE that runs on Windows, too.  I tend not to use it because Windows.
]
(;W[mi]
C[scotto: I was thinking you'd played there at some point
sigue: This looks complicated.
scotto: Well, I'm trying to get in the habit of playing solely to learn, try new things, experiment ...
scotto: it does look complicated
]
(;B[lj]
C[scotto: My system is dual boot with Win10, but default boots to linux
scotto: I think the last time I booted Windows was last year when I used TurboTax to do taxes :-)
scotto: Just didn't feel comfortable trying to run TT with Wine...
sigue: lol, TurboTax is my reason for booting up Windows too.
]
(;W[li]
C[sigue: m11 = challenge accepted. :)
scotto: :-0
]
(;B[lm]
(;W[nj]
(;B[nh]
(;W[jl]
C[scotto: I installed opendylan. 
scotto: had to go look in bin to see it's called dylan-environment to run it
scotto: got a prompt, so it's working
scotto: will have to go check out the tutorial for the hello world  code
]
(;B[ml]
C[sigue: There's dylan-environment and dylan-compiler.  dylan-compiler is more for batch compilation. dylan-environment is supposed to be more of a REPL, but that really doesn't work on Linux yet.
sigue: Also (and I never really thought about this before) our docs are versioned, so the tutorials may not work well with the 2020 release. Sigh.
]
(;W[mn]
C[scotto: Yeah, tried basic stuff at the > prompt but it didn't like anything
sigue: You mean you tried evaluating expressions?  Or just basic commands didn't work?
scotto: just expressions, like 5
scotto: or 1 +2
scotto: says no command named
sigue: yeah, no REPL at the moment. very sad.
sigue: you need to make a project. Then use `dylan-compiler -build my-project`. then _build/bin/my-project to run it.
scotto: ok, i was just starting to look at the cli doc on the webpage
scotto: what is deft ?
sigue: It's a little baroque.  Making a project is slighting involved. 
sigue: deft is a tool i wrote AFTER 2020 that will do things like create a project, run tests, manage workspaces, download dependencies, etc.
sigue: Sort of like the "go" tool for the Go language if you know it.
scotto: no, haven't looked at Go, or rather Go
scotto: :-)
scotto: I kind of don't like N6
sigue: deft is kind of an interface to the Dylan package manager, which I am also responsible for. :)
sigue: I tell you what...I will investigate Arch and how to make a package for it. Maybe I can modernize the Open Dylan package.
sigue: We're trying to get a new release out the door, and having various packages for it when we release would be ideal.
scotto: cool
scotto: I'll definitely try it out
sigue: Might take me a while because I have to install Arch somewhere.  But this is something I wanted to get on top of for a while so ...
scotto: I like linux, but there are so many choices...
scotto: which is good and bad
scotto: and seems like that's kind of a big hassle for developers isn't it?
scotto: having to install multiple linux ...
scotto: or is it not as bad as I imagine?
scotto: I'm just an ignorant user :-)
]
(;B[kn]
C[sigue: I'm just an ignorant tool / library writer. I'm actually really bad at sysadmin stuff.
sigue: But someone's gotta do it!
]
(;W[kl]
(;B[ll]
C[sigue: We usually distribute binaries for Debian, FreeBSD, macOS, and Windows. Beyond that people can build from source if they want to.  It should generally build on any Linux distribution I think.
]
(;W[nm]
C[scotto: so without deft, how do I make a project?
]
(;B[nl]
C[scotto: is it basically just a folder with src files
sigue: At a high level it's just creating 3 simple files: build file, library/module definition, main code. 
sigue: I did some work to make it so it could all be done in one file, but it never landed. I think that would be a big win for beginners.
sigue: deft does all that stuff for you with `deft new application abc`
]
(;W[nk]
(;B[ol]
(;W[ql]
C[scotto: I did the following:
scotto: mkdir hello
scotto: in hello, created hello.lid, hello.dylan and library.dylan files
scotto: similar to what's in Getting Started on dylan.org
scotto: ran dylan-compiler, and was able to import the .lid and open the project
scotto: when I try build, it says project file  missing 'format-out'
scotto: I don't have any env values set and dylan is installed in /opt
]
(;B[pk]
(;W[rj]
C[sigue: It sounds like you might have "use format-out;" in your "define library" form.  You should have "use io;" in the library definition and "use format-out;" in the module definition.
sigue: If that doesn't fix it, I'll need to look at your code.
scotto: I did have use in the library form. fixed that and build worked. Hello, World is running. :-)
]
(;B[in]
C[sigue: Nice.
sigue: You probably figured out you have to ignore all those warnings from the "dylan" library.  You won't see them on subsequent builds.
sigue: ...builds of the same project.
]
(;W[ho]
C[sigue: Every time I talk to someone trying out Dylan for the first time I think about doing this again: https://opendylan.org/proposals/dep-0006-single-file-library.html
scotto: Yeah, I didn't pay much attention to what was scrolling by. It said build completed at the end so figure good to go. :-)
scotto: and it was.
scotto: Everything in the proposal makes sense to me. 
]
(;B[hn]
(;W[gn]
(;B[il]
(;W[ik]
(;B[jp]
(;W[ln]
(;B[km]
(;W[im]
(;B[lo]
(;W[mo]
(;B[hl]
C[scotto: What's more likely, implementing single file libraries DEP for Dylan or my dragon living?
]
(;W[hm]
C[sigue: I have to say the DEP. :)
sigue: I had a chat with the main compiler guy and we clarified some things about the semantics.
sigue: I hope to work on it _after_ our next release.
]
(;B[ko]
(;W[mp]
(;B[io]
(;W[hp]
(;B[hk]
(;W[gk]
(;B[hj]
(;W[ni]
(;B[gj]
(;W[jm]
(;B[bd]
(;W[bc]
(;B[be]
(;W[cb]
(;B[lr]
(;W[kr]
(;B[mr]
(;W[jq]
(;B[er]
C[scotto: bit chilly at -25 this morning
scotto: almost to zero now
sigue: We're at a balmy 18. I feel for those southern states where they don't know how to deal with cold and snow.
]
(;W[fr]
C[scotto: Indeed. No plows or anything, so they'll just have to wait for all the snow and ice to melt.
]
(;B[gf]
(;W[ef]
(;B[eg]
(;W[se]
(;B[sc]
(;W[es]
(;B[dr]
(;W[ds]
C[sigue: Maybe the worst part about winter is how bored the dog gets. (She's not like a Husky that's happy to just stay outdoors in the cold.)
]
(;B[cs]
(;W[fs]
C[scotto: I suppose she gets a bit restless after a long winter.
scotto: Our "pets" are the cotton tails in the neighborhood. :-) 
]
(;B[cr]
(;W[fk]
C[sigue: Sooo many rabbits around here as well. They seem to thrive in suburbs, but I frequently see them even in Cambridge MA, which is a lot more densely populated than where I am.
scotto: We put kitchen scraps out for them year round, and my wife collects clover flowers for them in the summer. Sometimes one nests in the yard or under the shed.
scotto: Occasionally there's a bolder one that won't run away when you get close.
]
(;B[fj]
(;W[ek]
(;B[dk]
(;W[kg]
(;B[lf]
(;W[ej]
(;B[ei]
(;W[lb]
(;B[mb]
(;W[od]
(;B[ro]
(;W[pc]
(;B[qc]
(;W[pb]
(;B[ob]
(;W[ic]
(;B[jc]
(;W[jb]
(;B[sl]
(;W[rl]
(;B[sm]
(;W[rn]
(;B[sn]
(;W[sk]
C[scotto: Any thoughts on a gui package for CL?
]
(;B[gc]
C[scotto: I found a few but none appear to be in the Arch repo or the Arch user repo
sigue: My guess is that people don't generally keep the Arch repos up-to-date. The most used package manager for CL seems to be Quicklisp. Check quickdocs.org for "gui" perhaps.
sigue: The only one I ever used was CLIM, back in the 80s and 90s. It's very non-standard as far as modern GUI building goes, but powerful in some ways.
sigue: It's called mcclim now.
]
(;W[gb]
(;B[hc]
(;W[hb]
(;B[ff]
(;W[ee]
(;B[qg]
(;W[rg]
(;B[oo]
(;W[do]
(;B[co]
(;W[ep]
(;B[on]
(;W[om]
(;B[id]
(;W[cp]
(;B[bp]
(;W[ib]
(;B[cq]
(;W[rm]
(;B[so]
(;W[po]
(;B[op]
(;W[nf]
(;B[og]
(;W[ij]
(;B[hi]
(;W[la]
(;B[ma]
(;W[nn]
(;B[fd]
(;W[fe]
(;B[gd]
(;W[mh]
(;B[mg]
(;W[ce]
(;B[bf]
(;W[sd]
(;B[qb]
(;W[ii]
(;B[ih]
(;W[jh]
(;B[kc]
(;W[kb]
(;B[np]
(;W[ad]
(;B[ae]
(;W[ac]
(;B[ks]
(;W[js]
(;B[ls]
(;W[iq]
(;B[ke]
(;W[qp]
C[sigue: Let's see if this works. :)
]
(;B[rp]
C[scotto: ok
]
(;W[qq]
(;B[rq]
(;W[qr]
(;B[rr]
(;W[or]
C[scotto: am i correct that, so far, i didn't have any choice?
sigue: Yes, I think so.
]
(;B[qs]
C[scotto: I'll give this a try
scotto: i'm losing, so can't lose more :-)
]
(;W[pr]
C[sigue: Good attitude!
sigue: I couldn't read this whole thing out.  But the R4 cut was very seductive.
scotto: yeah, i usually feel reasonably safe with the 3 stones at the cut, 2 stone obviously dead
scotto: safe, if you can gain the liberties
scotto: but the split here not so comfortable
sigue: I wonder if it's possible to get some weird seki here.
]
(;B[ns]
C[scotto: that's what i was thinking
sigue: o1 is the move I was thinking of. my only response is o2 to prevent an eye
]
(;W[nr]
(;B[ps]
C[scotto: i got know idea lol
sigue: hmm, I guess there's a ko here, and it favors you.
]
(;W[os]
C[sigue: that is, I think i have to win the ko twice.
scotto: ah
]
(;B[rs]
(;W[no]
C[scotto: at least one part lives
sigue: or you can choose seki. :)
sigue: time to evaluate your ko threats.
scotto: yeah, i don't think i've got enough high value threats....
sigue: Counter point: you need the points. :)
scotto: true
scotto: and i'm still losing.... :-)
sigue: So just play the ko.  Nothing to lose. heh
scotto: well, i'm wondering...
scotto: to play the ko
scotto: should i just play say, Q3 to take a liberty
scotto: or
sigue: I dunno though, it depends on what you like to do.  You can always hit the resign button. But I have no problem with continuing...it can be educational and fun.
scotto: yeah
scotto: or should I play something now that will lead to more ko threats?
sigue: Yeah, I think Q3 or P3 and then you have to win the ko after that.
sigue: ok, well if you see something that will lead to more ko threats, that could be ok too.
sigue: I might just play N1 then, to start the ko.
]
(;B[pq]
(;W[ms]
C[sigue: I see a couple of moves that threaten to make your center group live.
sigue: oh, wait. maybe not.
scotto: that's what i'm looking for..
sigue: because if i capture m1 those threats don't work.
scotto: but don't really see any
sigue: yeah, sorry, I guess i don't either.
scotto: yeah, i think that's good, i don't see any threat...
scotto: gg
sigue: Thanks for the game
sigue: [object Object\]
]
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