(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2025-03-22]
PC[OGS: https://online-go.com/game/73570091]
GN[Tournament Game: Exploring Mirrors #1 (123040) R:2 (Jon Ko vs shinuito)]
PB[shinuito]
PW[Jon Ko]
BR[2k]
WR[5k]
TM[259200]OT[86400 fischer]
RE[B+R]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]
C[Jon Ko: Hi and happy mirror go! :)
]
;B[pc]
C[Jon Ko: Hi and happy mirror go! :)
]
(;W[dq]
(;B[pp]
C[shinuito: Have fun.
]
(;W[dd]
(;B[co]
(;W[qe]
(;B[qh]
(;W[cl]
(;B[ep]
(;W[od]
(;B[pd]
(;W[dp]
(;B[do]
(;W[pe]
(;B[oe]
(;W[eo]
(;B[fp]
(;W[nd]
(;B[en]
(;W[bq]
(;B[hm]
(;W[rc]
(;B[nb]
(;W[mc]
(;B[mb]
(;W[lc]
(;B[lb]
(;W[kc]
(;B[rd]
(;W[re]
(;B[rb]
(;W[of]
(;B[cf]
(;W[ci]
(;B[fc]
(;W[fd]
(;B[gd]
(;W[fe]
(;B[dc]
(;W[cc]
(;B[ec]
(;W[df]
(;B[dg]
(;W[ce]
(;B[ef]
(;W[de]
(;B[cg]
(;W[eh]
(;B[eg]
(;W[fh]
(;B[be]
(;W[bd]
(;B[gg]
(;W[ge]
(;B[gf]
(;W[he]
(;B[jb]
(;W[hc]
(;B[hb]
(;W[gb]
(;B[gc]
(;W[ib]
(;B[ic]
(;W[ha]
(;B[hd]
(;W[jc]
(;B[hb]
(;W[qp]
(;B[ia]
(;W[pq]
(;B[di]
(;W[dh]
(;B[ch]
(;W[cj]
(;B[fi]
(;W[gh]
(;B[hh]
(;W[gi]
(;B[dk]
(;W[dj]
(;B[ck]
(;W[hi]
(;B[if]
(;W[ie]
(;B[ih]
(;W[jg]
(;B[ig]
(;W[hf]
(;B[hg]
(;W[jj]
(;B[ki]
(;W[ek]
(;B[bk]
(;W[bj]
(;B[el]
(;W[fk]
(;B[dl]
(;W[jh]
(;B[ii]
(;W[ji]
(;B[ij]
(;W[hk]
(;B[ik]
(;W[hl]
(;B[il]
C[shinuito: [object Object\]
]
(;W[im]
(;B[jm]
(;W[in]
(;B[gm]
(;W[jn]
(;B[kl]
(;W[kn]
(;B[jf]
(;W[jk]
(;B[jl]
(;W[lk]
(;B[hj]
(;W[gj]
(;B[fl]
(;W[gk]
(;B[bg]
(;W[ai]
(;B[ag]
(;W[ei]
(;B[kk]
(;W[lg]
(;B[kg]
(;W[kh]
(;B[lh]
(;W[kf]
(;B[kj]
(;W[kg]
(;B[je]
(;W[ae]
(;B[bf]
(;W[bb]
(;B[db]
(;W[ac]
(;B[mh]
(;W[lm]
(;B[ll]
(;W[ml]
(;B[mm]
(;W[mk]
(;B[nm]
(;W[ok]
C[Jon Ko: Oops, I have seven groups.
Jon Ko: but I always wanted to prove that proverb wrong.
]
(;B[ol]
C[shinuito: XD
]
(;W[pl]
(;B[pm]
C[shinuito: I guess I'll have to defend the proverb then :)
]
(;W[oh]
C[Jon Ko: You can try :P
]
(;B[nj]
C[shinuito: P12 looks very scary
]
(;W[nk]
(;B[oi]
C[shinuito: This one felt like my best chance, wasn’t sure about attaching first
]
(;W[pk]
(;B[mg]
(;W[mf]
(;B[ke]
(;W[lf]
(;B[nh]
(;W[og]
(;B[qm]
C[shinuito: looks even more scary
]
(;W[pi]
(;B[ph]
(;W[qi]
(;B[ri]
(;W[rj]
(;B[rg]
(;W[oj]
(;B[ni]
(;W[rk]
(;B[qj]
(;W[pj]
(;B[ql]
(;W[qk]
(;B[ln]
(;W[km]
(;B[lo]
(;W[ip]
(;B[jq]
(;W[iq]
(;B[jp]
(;W[ir]
(;B[gq]
(;W[io]
(;B[jr]
(;W[li]
(;B[hr]
(;W[lj]
(;B[is]
C[Jon Ko: Looks like the proverb is standing strong
]
(;W[fr]
C[Jon Ko: [object Object\]
]
(;B[bp]
(;W[cp]
(;B[bo]
(;W[cr]
(;B[qq]
(;W[oq]
(;B[rq]
C[shinuito: Yeah I think you just connect and fill liberties from the outside 
]
(;W[on]
(;B[po]
(;W[om]
(;B[no]
(;W[nl]
(;B[oo]
(;W[qr]
(;B[rr]
(;W[rs]
(;B[rp]
(;W[lp]
(;B[ko]
(;W[mp]
(;B[lr]
C[Jon Ko: Oh, yeah. N4 threatens N6, but N6 doesn't threaten anything (anymore).
Jon Ko: Thanks for the game :)
shinuito: Thanks for the game! Super complicated!
shinuito: The whole game was more or less bad for me XD then I played way too risky
shinuito: But after p12, it was just too hard to read 
shinuito: There was a lot going on
shinuito: [object Object\]
Jon Ko: Yeah, it was very interesting. I kind of stumbled into the colliding ladders, but I was happy with the result after P14.
Jon Ko: The having a target on the left to attack was nice, so I was okay with losing the ko on the top. Although now it seems my ko threat was way too small.
Jon Ko: -The +Then
Jon Ko: I regretted not getting K14, but I didn't see it as that big when I could still have played it. Now I understand.
Jon Ko: With J4 I was aiming a bit at G5, but it didn't really help at any point.
Jon Ko: It's just a pity I couldn't keep up the good game until the end. I guess one can feel fatigue in correspondence games too xD
shinuito: Yeah I think I went off correspondence games a little over the last while. I think it can be easy to just play too quickly one day and toss a game over the course of a few months
shinuito: Different kind of fatigue but definitely relevant 
Jon Ko: Yeah
Jon Ko: Oh, G3 is really funny. +36 with tier IV is quite something
shinuito: It's not something you see very often, but it's something I've been discussing recently
shinuito: [object Object\]
shinuito: generally happens in complicated situations I think, where it needs more playouts to evaluate
Jon Ko: Huh. How many payouts
Jon Ko: playouts does it use?
shinuito: Something like 12k the level 4 uses I think
shinuito: I think that gets spread out though, like the top move might've goteen 5k, the brighter green moves like 1500 or so
shinuito: but I think maybe the players next move gets some extra playouts, or since the move already exists on the board one move ahead, you can use the estimate from that position instead - something like that
shinuito: that would be maybe for the move at g3 
shinuito: The k4 one
shinuito: I think it put most of its playouts into that one, but again I think it could be something to do with it not seeing the end results of the capturing race
shinuito: like 11k+ playouts, but I think the ai review, again because it's the next move in the game also, can look one move further and take the estimate from there to try be more accurate
shinuito: We were having discussions about whether it's intuitive or not, or if there's another way/method to display it
Jon Ko: Display what?
shinuito: Oh as in supposing Katago is off in its estimate from one move to the next, you could have the move say it lost zero but then the bar wouldn’t agree with that “zero” change. Or you can do what’s currently done but goes against your expectation that the best move shouldn’t lose points
Jon Ko: Ah, I see. That would make sense, but I don't know if I'd like the raw data better.
]
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