(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2025-03-29]
PC[OGS: https://online-go.com/game/73804630]
GN[Teaching game]
PB[Mag11]
PW[GreenAsJade]
BR[13k]
WR[9k]
TM[259200]OT[86400 fischer]
RE[W+25.5]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]
C[GreenAsJade: Hi!   :)     I'm only 9k as you can see, but sometimes it's a useful perspective
]
;B[pd]
C[GreenAsJade: Hi!   :)     I'm only 9k as you can see, but sometimes it's a useful perspective
]
(;W[dq]
C[Mag11: Hi! Thank you very much
GreenAsJade: Do you know what I would call "the basics"?
Mag11: I think I do but maybe not all of them
]
(;B[qp]
C[GreenAsJade: Great, let's see then :)
]
(;W[dc]
(;B[oq]
(;W[ce]
(;B[co]
C[GreenAsJade: 👍
]
(;W[cp]
C[Mag11: I hesitated with Q10
GreenAsJade: Yes, I imagine :)    
GreenAsJade: Corners first though.   Esp 3-4 open
]
(;B[eo]
C[GreenAsJade: Feel free to come and go, it is correspondence ... I will likely as well.
]
(;W[fq]
C[Mag11: Yes sure
]
(;B[cl]
C[GreenAsJade: 👍
GreenAsJade: E5 is a bit interesting.   I was expecting D5.    D5 prevents any liberty advantage on C5.   
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: ^^ although at least that's a fight.
GreenAsJade: Generally: "if contacted, hane or extend".   Hence D5.
]
(;W[nc]
C[Mag11: I hesitated with D5 thought it was a bit short 
]
(;B[qf]
C[GreenAsJade: Yes - a natural instinct I reckon.    Until you know why :) 
]
(;W[pc]
(;B[qc]
(;W[qb]
(;B[rb]
(;W[pb]
(;B[rc]
(;W[kd]
C[GreenAsJade: S17 is "good instinct" - to protect your cuts.
GreenAsJade: R16 is joseki in that situation
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: I did it to see whether you have a choice of play that you know works for you.
GreenAsJade: You probably should try to have one, because this thing happens all the time 
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: R16 prevents the "white likes this" scenarios
GreenAsJade: Rather than have to read all this every time, this is why I suggest having one or two known sequences starting from Q17 where you've learned what joseki says
GreenAsJade: https://online-go.com/joseki/16050
GreenAsJade: As beginners, we should not have to learn much joseki, but this is one of the few where it helps to learn something :)
Mag11: When I played R14 I was expecting something like Q18
Mag11: I’m uncomfortable with stone attachments like Q17
]
(;B[pj]
C[GreenAsJade: Right!   They can feel painful, although a trick is knowing that attaching to a stone make _it_ stronger.   (That's a proverb or somefink)
GreenAsJade: Generally, attachments happen more in more advanced games.
GreenAsJade: THAT attachment though (Q17) is special, because it is "The Move" that's recommended in response to R14
GreenAsJade: AI says so :p
GreenAsJade: So we all just have to learn how to deal with it
GreenAsJade: It has so many possibilities, that my way of dealing with it is to just know, even roughly, a couple of them.
GreenAsJade: And to not play Q17 if the choice is mine, Q18 is perfectly fine for beginners.
GreenAsJade: Q10: 👍  biggest side, now that the corners are done.
]
(;W[jp]
(;B[lp]
(;W[hd]
(;B[jn]
C[GreenAsJade: This is an interesting one.
GreenAsJade: This is the first move that is "definitely not following the basics"
GreenAsJade: The basics "corners side center" call for a move on the left - probably C11 - or maybe even the right - Q7
GreenAsJade: K5 says "I (black) believe that the whole right hand side is mine, and I'm going to try to make a center moyo now"
GreenAsJade: ... _and_  "this will be worth more than securing the left"
GreenAsJade: In fact, neither of these are true IF your opponent is any good.
GreenAsJade: Now I just have to scratch my head and work out how to demonstrate that :D
GreenAsJade: (I meant K6, above)
GreenAsJade: Arguably, I "should" play C12, because that is what "basic strategy" says.
GreenAsJade: Because that side is open bigger
GreenAsJade: And it would be interesting to see whether as a result white regrets not immediately invading blacks right side.
GreenAsJade: Basic says "it doesn't matter, play C12"
GreenAsJade: On the other hand. it's also interesting to see whether the bottom right really is black's, which K6 claims
]
(;W[ql]
C[Mag11: I hesitated playing C11 or C12 
Mag11: But then I don’t know I saw K6 and it was too tempting
]
(;B[pm]
(;W[pl]
C[GreenAsJade: I think it's good that you know C11/C12 (and Q7) are the moves that "basic strategy" advises you to play.
GreenAsJade: At turn 24
GreenAsJade: It'd be also good to note that when you say "but this other move is more tempting" what you're saying is "I know better than the people who distilled basic strategy".    Does that sound right? ;)
Mag11: Haha I hadn’t seen it that way ! But you must be right ::))
Mag11: This move seemed so attractive that I forgot the basics
]
(;B[ol]
C[GreenAsJade: Yes, it's easy to happen, especially when the basics aren't "clearly good".
]
(;W[ok]
(;B[pk]
(;W[om]
(;B[nl]
(;W[pn]
C[GreenAsJade: I've been trying to think of advice about handling an invasion like this one
GreenAsJade: I think an important thing is to realise that you can't kill it all (unless the invader makes a mistake - but really we can't plan for that)
GreenAsJade: So you have to decide where to let it live
GreenAsJade: Q9 is a good instinct like "separate his stones where possible"
GreenAsJade: BUT it drove me down this way...  which might not have been the best outcome
GreenAsJade: ... because in this space (P5 area) is where your K6 stone was hoping to make lots of territory.
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: The main thing that could be a lesson is "fighting is rarely about killing, it is about driving the other person some way, and about making walls that create territory" (like PQR7)
GreenAsJade: Of course I'll eat my words if you kill me in here 😝
]
(;B[on]
(;W[qm]
(;B[nm]
(;W[oo]
(;B[nn]
(;W[qo]
(;B[no]
(;W[rp]
(;B[qq]
(;W[rj]
(;B[qi]
C[GreenAsJade: For the invader (me) the goal is first to escape, which you cut off, then to "press outwards on all sides, trying to make space for two eyes"
GreenAsJade: For the defender, if you can kill the invasion, of course you would like to.
GreenAsJade: But as I said, it's much much harder than you think as a rule, unless the invasion was just silly.
GreenAsJade: Each player would also really want to come out of it with sente
GreenAsJade: If the defender feels the invasion was not silly, then the goal is to profit from chasing it.
GreenAsJade: And get sente :)
GreenAsJade: I mentioned one way to profit might have been 
GreenAsJade: force the invasion out
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: In this instance, black's profit is the wall facing the center
GreenAsJade: I mean - in the case we have now, the way things turned out.
GreenAsJade: But black also lost the big corner in the process, so the profit needs to be high to make it worth it
GreenAsJade: R11 kind of says "black thinks white needs to respond to this" .... perhaps because black thinks white has only one eye in the S6 area
GreenAsJade: A contact move would have been "more surely sente"... maybe S3, R9, or S11?
GreenAsJade: I'm quite inclined to play away at this point, because I do feel alive in there now: I cant see how to kill me :)
GreenAsJade: Since I "have sente", I revisit the basic rules.   There are two contended corners at the moment (S3 and B3/4/5)
GreenAsJade: I personally find it hard to judge when a corner is "finished".  You and I both treated the bottom left as finished previously.   The bottom right has been "reactivated" by our play.
GreenAsJade: There's another "basic" that I am not at all good at, which is recognising "double sente".
GreenAsJade: "Always play a double sente" is a rule that's maybe not quite basic, but on my list
GreenAsJade: Double sente is a location where if either play plays there, the other has to respond, and the initial person still has sente  - they can play away.
GreenAsJade: I'm going to treat S11 as double sente.  I'm not playing there because you forced me (just to share the thinking), I'm playing there because I believe that if you did, I would have to respond (contact on my stone) and I think that if I play there you have to respond.
GreenAsJade: Since it is also a "side" move, this adds to the priority for basics.
]
(;W[ri]
(;B[rh]
C[GreenAsJade: So - I believe I'm alive in here now, in sente (yay).
GreenAsJade: That means I go back to basic strategy to see what to do next.
GreenAsJade: Now that I reminded myself about double-sente points, there is at least one more on the board - in theory I play them before corner-side-centre.
GreenAsJade: Esp if they are in a corner.
]
(;W[bo]
(;B[cn]
(;W[od]
(;B[oe]
(;W[pe]
(;B[qe]
C[GreenAsJade: Interestingly, Q15 was a flat out mistake, it seems.
GreenAsJade: Because of what we discussed earlier: it starts a fight that drives black in the direction that what does not want them to go
]
(;W[ne]
C[GreenAsJade:  Better to cut losses, when you spot something like that :)
]
(;B[of]
(;W[nf]
(;B[pf]
(;W[ch]
C[Mag11: I would have liked to play there 
]
(;B[dj]
C[GreenAsJade: Yes, I think you would have :)
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: ^^ that doesn't look too shabby in the top right
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
]
(;W[hp]
(;B[hn]
(;W[ei]
C[GreenAsJade: What's your assessment of the game now/
GreenAsJade: ?
Mag11: I have troubles with priorities
GreenAsJade: So do we all. :)
Mag11: I often hesitate between different spots
GreenAsJade: I'm curious what you think of the position ...  which side would you choose now and why?
Mag11: Well, I thought about E10 for you not to go deeper into what I’d like to be my territory, but it would just strenghten you
]
(;B[ng]
C[GreenAsJade: It's right thinking.   It's OK to leave that for another sente move like O13.   
GreenAsJade: We're at the stage now where "basic strategy" ends and you play out the result of it
GreenAsJade: It's a tussle at this point, more reading and tactics than strategy
]
(;W[mg]
C[GreenAsJade: I think it helps to have an overall board appraisal - that's what I wonder what your assessment is: what is the score right now?  Where is each player making the most score?   
GreenAsJade: This leads to: what does that person have to do to win?
GreenAsJade: It also shines some light on "the result of the choices made earlier".
GreenAsJade: So it's a good time to take stock...
GreenAsJade: If you are ahead, you might be advised to play conservatively and defensively
GreenAsJade: If you are behind you need to force fights and try to get a mistake or opening from your opponent
Mag11: Black has some territory on the right white too above and below
Mag11: Then black has this wall with some stones nearby
Mag11: I would call the other parts more influence than territory
Mag11: I’d say black is slighly ahead for territory and white for influence
]
(;B[dh]
C[GreenAsJade: Ah hah.   I think that in appraising "who is winning" for deciding what to do at the end of the "basic strategy" phase (now) you have to be prepared to call territory or not
GreenAsJade: I look at black and say "what areas do I expect them to have in their score, unless something dramatic happens".   
GreenAsJade: Bottom right corner.   Top right corner out to P11.   Let's say we each extend along E10 and E11 - then black has the lower middle.
GreenAsJade: and black has a bit of lower left side.
GreenAsJade: In the same scenario white has lower left corner and bottom left side, upper left corner and top right side, all the top side and the top center.
GreenAsJade: And the right lower side
GreenAsJade: It looks a lot more.
GreenAsJade: But ... if black thinks that the lower center is territory and the upper center is not (IE D12 is going to lead to invasion of the top center) then this assessment would be wrong
GreenAsJade: I'm putting this on the table to add to the tools to help "hesitating between spots"/
GreenAsJade: Tools to help with this are 
GreenAsJade:  - Basic strategy guidelines
GreenAsJade: - Overall board appraisal: what needs attention
GreenAsJade:  - Having a plan
GreenAsJade: D12 might be the beginning of a couple of different plans.    
GreenAsJade: I'm curious what was your thinking?
]
(;W[di]
C[Mag11: Well I think bottom left and right sides can be reduced
Mag11: Black really doesn’t like the E11 stone
Mag11: Attacking there may lead to an invasion of the center
Mag11: But saying that doesn’t mean I know how to do it !!  :)
]
(;B[gf]
C[GreenAsJade: Cool!   D12 + G13 is a great way to start dealing with the problem of white's centre moyo.   It's a bit like the invasion of the lower right by white ... put a stone in and see if you can run or live.
]
(;W[hg]
(;B[hf]
(;W[ig]
(;B[jf]
(;W[if]
(;B[ie]
(;W[he]
(;B[id]
(;W[ic]
(;B[je]
(;W[gh]
(;B[hc]
(;W[gc]
(;B[hb]
(;W[gd]
(;B[jc]
(;W[kc]
(;B[jb]
(;W[jd]
(;B[gb]
(;W[fb]
(;B[fa]
(;W[eb]
(;B[kb]
(;W[lb]
(;B[jg]
(;W[jh]
C[Mag11: It looks like it’s gonna be neither. 
Mag11: Only one eye at the top, and I don’t find a path to run
]
(;B[kg]
C[GreenAsJade: It's been a great attempt - had me on my toes.
]
(;W[kh]
C[GreenAsJade: Even at this stage I've hesitated to say "phew" to myself :)
GreenAsJade: Typically, common wisdom is that you can put an invading stone at most one point "behind the line"
GreenAsJade: ... unless it can reach the side.
GreenAsJade: The line you lept inside was E11 - N13 ... you went deep
GreenAsJade: Sides offer a lot more potential ... F16 or F17 may have been viable.
GreenAsJade: Forcing moves add to the potential.   I'm not sure about playing them early.
GreenAsJade: D12 was a forcing move - you might have not-played it if you intended to invade, leaving it for an opportunity to play it when I would have to respond instead of killing an eye
GreenAsJade: On the up side, D12 was then a stone to run to, but you chose to go the other direction
GreenAsJade: H14 seemed OK - it contacts my stone, and threatens to wrap around it downwards, which is why I had to just extend.
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: It might be "no, it's not a mistake it's a plan"
GreenAsJade: The plan is "make more liberties in the L14 area while we sacrifice H14"
GreenAsJade: But there's less room over there.... 🧐
]
(;B[lg]
(;W[lh]
(;B[mf]
(;W[mh]
(;B[me]
(;W[nd]
C[GreenAsJade: You found a forcing move :)
]
(;B[lc]
C[Mag11: Maybe I want too much here
]
(;W[ld]
(;B[ke]
C[Mag11: Imanagee to live but now you have this beautiful wall
Mag11: I managed
GreenAsJade: It's amazing how things can live in a little space eh?
GreenAsJade: It's also amazing how _expensive_ unfixed cuts are: if your opponent has those, you can be elated
]
(;W[md]
C[GreenAsJade: A teacher once said to me "look at the board every turn and make sure you see a bloody knife protruding from each cut"
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: The things we think of in hindsight :)
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
]
(;B[le]
(;W[mb]
(;B[ga]
(;W[ej]
(;B[fk]
C[GreenAsJade: From a teaching perspective, a couple of things.
GreenAsJade: I think G19 was not necessary, gave away the initiative?   Maybe theres something clever white can do if black doesn't take G19, but I didn't spot it :)
GreenAsJade: Big picture: the question is again "who is ahead, and what is each person's plan?
]
(;W[nh]
C[Mag11: I think without G19 white could have turned the top into a false eye
]
(;B[nj]
C[GreenAsJade: Ah hah - well better safe than sorry :)
]
(;W[jk]
(;B[jj]
(;W[ij]
(;B[ik]
(;W[kk]
(;B[hj]
(;W[ii]
(;B[jl]
(;W[kl]
(;B[il]
(;W[kn]
(;B[km]
(;W[lm]
(;B[jm]
(;W[ll]
(;B[ln]
(;W[ko]
(;B[lo]
(;W[dk]
(;B[ek]
(;W[dl]
(;B[cj]
(;W[ck]
(;B[bj]
(;W[bk]
(;B[ak]
(;W[al]
(;B[am]
(;W[aj]
(;B[bl]
(;W[ak]
(;B[bn]
(;W[ao]
(;B[an]
(;W[bp]
(;B[dm]
(;W[el]
(;B[fl]
(;W[em]
(;B[en]
(;W[fm]
(;B[gm]
(;W[bi]
(;B[dp]
C[GreenAsJade: I'm mindful that this is supposed to be a teaching game ... I've been thinking about the "lessons" of this phase.
GreenAsJade: The lesson foremost in my mind is:
GreenAsJade: "how much of our final score comes from:
GreenAsJade:  - Centre territory
GreenAsJade:  - Outcomes of walls
GreenAsJade: ?"
GreenAsJade: I'm asking you to evaluate this because you sounded enamoured with centre territory and walls in the early part of the game.
GreenAsJade: Your play (decisions) were influenced by "making moves that moyo the centre" and you admired a couple of walls facing the centre
GreenAsJade: We can ask this question again at the end, but the answer is quite clear already :)
GreenAsJade: I think it helps to answer this question now, then reflect on "oh, that is why basic strategy says what it says, and why it makes sense to follow it"
GreenAsJade: There's an actual lesson here about _why_ we secure corner and side territory before worrying about the scraps in the centre :)
GreenAsJade: I think you will also find, if you go looking, that "AI teaches us that influence is over-rated".
GreenAsJade: Walls = influence.    It is true that in beginner play, influence can lead more readily to victory, because beginners don't know how to counter it.
GreenAsJade: The AI laughs at influence and throws stones in that live.   We can't quite to as well, but it moderates the idea of influence.
GreenAsJade: ("do as well")
]
(;W[kq]
C[GreenAsJade: The other lesson is "tenuki if you can, to get ahead".
GreenAsJade: There is tension and risk here: if you tenuki too soon you die.
GreenAsJade: But in an even game - the one we want to win - it is by definition "close".  That means the person who grabs the next opportunity to do better wins
GreenAsJade: I think that G19 and D4 were opportunities to tenuki.
GreenAsJade: I could easily be wrong in both cases.    BUT I  personally can't see how white responds with a kill to either of those,
GreenAsJade: There is not actually a "yes / no" or "wrong/right" answer here.   m
GreenAsJade: It's a judgement call "what are the chances of your opponent killing now" is the question.
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: is much better than
GreenAsJade: [object Object\]
GreenAsJade: How many points difference?
GreenAsJade: Of course, for me to tenuki now, I take a risk that I missed something gnarly around the cut I've left.  Cuts are awful, so this is a risk for sure.
GreenAsJade: :)
]
(;B[eq]
C[Mag11: You’re right about walls, I like them very much :) 
Mag11: My problem with them is nou so much how to counter them but how tu use them efficiently
Mag11: Not … to
GreenAsJade: Well - it bears thinking about.   Why do you like them if they don't deliver results?   Same with infliuence and centre territory.  
GreenAsJade: Hah that does work out eh 😝
]
(;W[dr]
(;B[er]
(;W[cq]
(;B[ds]
(;W[cs]
(;B[br]
(;W[es]
(;B[fr]
(;W[gr]
(;B[fs]
(;W[aq]
(;B[bq]
(;W[bs]
(;B[ar]
(;W[gs]
(;B[ep]
(;W[cr]
(;B[ap]
(;W[ib]
(;B[ia]
(;W[aq]
(;B[fn]
(;W[ci]
(;B[ap]
(;W[bm]
(;B[aq]
(;W[as]
(;B[aq]
(;W[cm]
(;B[gq]
(;W[hq]
(;B[gp]
(;W[hr]
(;B[ho]
(;W[kp]
(;B[lq]
(;W[lr]
(;B[mr]
(;W[kr]
(;B[ls]
(;W[ks]
(;B[ms]
(;W[rq]
(;B[rr]
(;W[mk]
(;B[nk]
(;W[mj]
(;B[og]
(;W[oi]
(;B[oh]
(;W[ni]
(;B[oj]
(;W[cc]
(;B[op]
C[Mag11: Why C17?
]
(;W[po]
C[GreenAsJade: Because it was the time of the game at which I could not afford for you to succeed in there, and I could afford to give you sente
GreenAsJade: Giving you sente: as far as I can see, I'm still ahead.   Having you throw a stone in there and live: would change the outcome.
Mag11: I get that but I don’t see what I could have done (successfully) there. Maybe there’s something nice I don’t see ! :)
GreenAsJade: I could not prove to myself that it was _not_ possible :)
GreenAsJade: And ... I had everything to lose if it was possible, and nothing to lose by playing safe
GreenAsJade: I guess this is endgame stuff.   Endgame has varying definitions.  One of them is "when you can fairly closely count what the score will be"
]
(;B[ip]
C[GreenAsJade: ... when that's the case, then it's time to eliminate any risk or uncertainties :)
GreenAsJade: It's also the time to retain sente if at all possible (other than gote moves to reduce risk)
GreenAsJade: J4 seems gote 🧐
]
(;W[iq]
(;B[io]
(;W[fj]
(;B[gj]
(;W[gi]
(;B[sq]
(;W[so]
(;B[qk]
(;W[rk]
(;B[si]
(;W[sj]
(;B[sh]
(;W[sp]
(;B[sr]
(;W[pi]
(;B[qj]
(;W[rl]
(;B[ea]
(;W[da]
(;B[hi]
(;W[hh]
(;B[gk]
C[GreenAsJade: rats :)
]
(;W[ph]
(;B[qh]
(;W[pg]
(;B[qg]
(;W[ra]
(;B[sb]
(;W[pp]
(;B[pq]
(;W[mm]
(;B[mn]
(;W[qa]
(;B[la]
(;W[ma]
(;B[ka]
(;W[]
(;B[]
C[GreenAsJade: Thoughts?   Questions?
Mag11: Thank you very much for this game
GreenAsJade: :) You're welxcome.
Mag11: A lot of things to think about and practice
GreenAsJade: Great! 
GreenAsJade: In my opinion, the biggest improvement can be in the late opening.
GreenAsJade: The AI graph here doesn't really help you much, because it's worried about subtle things that DDKs won't notice  (for edxample it's worried about the top right in the first 30 moves, when for DDKs there are much more improtant thigns
Mag11: Yes that’s often a moment when i hesitate a lot
GreenAsJade: I liked your opening right up to move 20.   
GreenAsJade: M4 claimed a spaced of 4 stones on the bottom side and let me ave the choice of top or left, each which was 6-7 stones wide: not good for DDK opening
GreenAsJade: I understand that M4 was aimed at making moyo in the lower right.   
GreenAsJade: In reality it delivered about 3 points in that area :)   (not counting the bottom side territory)
GreenAsJade: K6 has two things (at least) wrong with it
GreenAsJade: 1) It allows white again the choice between two 6-7 space gaps on sides _and_ it concedes the territory that Q10 claimed on the right lower side
GreenAsJade: You were pleased with the wall that resulted from white R8
GreenAsJade: But in reality that wall didn't deliver any points, and white R8 stole  8 points directly to white plus losing all the other ones that might have been black
GreenAsJade: So I think there's lots we chatted about, but "apply basic strategy to the opening" would perhaps be the most concrete change you could make.   Don't be tempted by things like K6 because now you've seen _why_ basic strategy says take care of corners and sides first.
Mag11: Yes I’m gonna try to keep the basics in mind !
Mag11: And refrain from some temptations !
Mag11: Thank you again
GreenAsJade: 🎉
]
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