(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
GN[alpha demo]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/116111]
PB[Black]
PW[White]
BR[8d]
WR[8d]
OT[Error: time control missing]
RE[?]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]
C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: We just lost like 3000 people
Pempu: samuel_god: it was bugged. the relay had around 450 observers. 
kingkimchi: give me 2 mins
]
;B[pd]
;W[pp]
;B[cd]
;W[dp]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: I know the chinese
]
(;B[cn]
;W[fq]
;B[id]
;W[qf]
;B[nc]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: What is the high chinese about?
]
;W[qm]
;B[dj]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: ill get to that in a sec, let me say why white is winning
kingkimchi: here you see black has 4 stones on left side
kingkimchi: by move 60ish count how many territory those 4 stones managed
]
;W[ed]
;B[dc]
;W[eg]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: oh yeah, so theres a classic opening called chinese opening
samuel_god: Thanks
Baran: did black not simply give up E14 group ? it seemed to end just as a dumpling, black still got corner and half of top side, wouldnt it have been possible?
]
;B[ef]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: as early as move 15, showed pressure on lees shoulders
kingkimchi: anyways play around a bit with the game, reach out to me with questions,
kingkimchi: good night everyone
]
;W[de]
;B[df]
;W[ce]
;B[ec]
;W[fd]
;B[ff]
;W[fc]
;B[bd]
;W[he]
;B[ie]
;W[hd]
;B[ic]
;W[hg]
;B[if]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: someone said they had question about move 29?
]
;W[gg]
(;B[jh]C[

-- chat --
Baran: should he have simply played on the left side? Why did he play K12, did he not expect C11 ?
]
(;W[ci]C[

-- chat --
Baran: yes why
]
(;B[dg]
;W[di]
;B[ei]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: i still dont think alpha is exceptional, its just the built in advantage of computing power, not making mistakes
]
;W[bg]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: ok so you have to look at the very beginning
]
;B[bh]
;W[be]C[

-- chat --
RobertT: k12 is one of Lee Sedols only major mistakes this game
]
;B[bi]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: Why did he play it?
samuel_god: And what should he have done?
kingkimchi: yeah, his playing style has never been a strong early game, its his mid-late game ability that won him so many titles
samuel_god: After that pinsier?
]
;W[cj]
;B[dh]
;W[dk]
;B[ej]
;W[ck]
;B[ch]
;W[gi]
;B[fh]
;W[dm]
;B[dn]
;W[fg]
;B[eh]
;W[fm]
;B[ek]
;W[el]
;B[gk]
;W[ii]
;B[cm]
;W[fo]
;B[en]
;W[fl]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: any questions at this point?
samuel_god: Is anyone winning?
samuel_god: Do you have anything to note about the moves thus far?
kingkimchi: defintely white
samuel_god: And they're not giving black much influence or anything either, right?
kingkimchi: yep, b thickness on right side has almost no impact
kingkimchi: white has komi, so theres alot of pressure on b
samuel_god: Do pros tend to prefer either black or white?
]
;B[bk]
;W[bj]
;B[aj]
;W[hm]
;B[hj]
;W[hi]
;B[gj]
;W[ji]
;B[il]
;W[jn]
(;B[cp]
;W[cq]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: the bottom left corner was very bad for lee, but he kinda had to to protect the ko
]
(;B[dq]
;W[dr]
;B[bq]
;W[eq]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: basically after 76, bottom is all white territory
samuel_god: What about, like, Q2? 
samuel_god: Or something I can't see
samuel_god: Seems impossible to read everything
kingkimchi: well.. sometimes its impossible, sometimes its its not beneficial
kingkimchi: which approach?
Enumaris: like O3
kingkimchi: he cant surround that group
]
(;B[pm]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: so i think thats why he very painfully played73, 75
kingkimchi: 77 really shocked me, i thought he would go p2, i.e. bottom white territory
kingkimchi: black is really looking for some sort of opening to attach the top group of white
kingkimchi: but he cant straight up
]
(;W[pl]
;B[qn]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: No way to live in there?
]
;W[om]
;B[pn]
;W[ql]
;B[ol]
;W[on]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: where?
samuel_god: In the whole bottom
]
;B[rn]
;W[oo]
;B[ok]
;W[qi]
;B[ll]
(;W[hc]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: i think 89 showed Lee's hand, what i said earlier about the true purpose of the group of black on right is to attack white
kingkimchi: its tempting to capture black here
kingkimchi: so i think this was a deliberate trap laid be Lee
kingkimchi: to see how alpha would respond
samuel_god: I feel like Lee kept thinking there would be some glitch or weak point
]
;B[qq]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: well, thats the hope i have, that humans can learn and adapt much faster
kingkimchi: if we can exploit certain weaknesses, but it seems unlikely against the vast computing power of alpha
]
;W[qp]
;B[rp]
;W[pq]
;B[rq]
;W[qr]
;B[rr]
;W[ln]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: I think that's unlikely. AlphaGo played itself for the equivalent of thousands of years.
]
;B[qe]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: In terms of how long it would take a human to play that many games
samuel_god: So it can almost certainly learn and adapt faster
kingkimchi: yep
kingkimchi: i still think some of the top chinese pros would have a good chance at beating alpha
kingkimchi: lee has never been good in early game
kingkimchi: his talent showed towards that crazy ending
kingkimchi: but alpha will not make mistakes in late game, so early game is where human understanding has to take an advantage
]
;W[re]
;B[rd]
;W[pe]
;B[qd]
;W[bb]
;B[dd]
;W[ee]
;B[cb]
;W[bc]
;B[ad]
;W[eb]
;B[ba]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: heres a life death problem to look at
kingkimchi: looks almost like a puzzle
samuel_god: Maybe this will be the end of the "korean style."
samuel_god: If the older Japanese style was more intuitive, left more open and the korean style is very tight, analysis based
samuel_god: At least, sounds like the "japanese style" would be better against AlphaGo and be where humans are stronger. But maybe top pros will train against computers, so the "korean style" will get even more dominant
]
;W[gb]
;B[qk]
;W[pk]
;B[lo]
;W[mn]
;B[pj]
;W[qj]
;B[rl]
;W[rk]
;B[rm]
;W[qk]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: it may be irrelevant stylistically, in the face of far superior computing power
]
;B[cr]
;W[pf]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: 123 pretty much showed that lee knows hes very behind
]
;B[iq]
;W[kq]
;B[lq]
;W[jq]
;B[jo]
;W[kn]
;B[hr]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: the rest of the game was pretty much a desperation heave
]
;W[ip]
;B[hp]
;W[io]
;B[jr]
;W[kr]
;B[ho]
;W[gq]
;B[hq]
;W[in]
;B[fn]
;W[gn]
;B[go]
;W[gr]
;B[gs]
;W[fs]
;B[is]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: managed to make ko, but too many steps to approach it
kingkimchi: and too many local ko threats for white
kingkimchi: it did show alphas ko abilities though
kingkimchi: i was hoping lee finished the game so we get to see alphas ability to evaluate ko threats
]
;W[ib]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: And what did you end up thinking about it?
kingkimchi: 148 showed that alpha already calculated through all variations bottom
kingkimchi: ko ability is good
kingkimchi: accurately calculates how many threats are left
kingkimchi: 148 shows that, its a win more move
samuel_god: I thought AlphaGo doesn't play win more moves
kingkimchi: well in the sense of reducing variance
kingkimchi: which equates to higher win prob i think
]
;B[ks]
;W[lr]
;B[dq]
;W[hn]
;B[ds]
;W[cq]
;B[fp]
;W[eo]
;B[do]
;W[ep]
;B[er]
;W[hs]
;B[qh]
;W[ph]
;B[gs]
;W[dq]
;B[br]
;W[hs]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: If lee had won here, would he have won the game?
]
;B[pi]
;W[oh]
;B[gs]
;W[bp]
;B[hs]
;W[co]
;B[bo]C[

-- chat --
Enumaris: According to Chinese commentary no
]
;W[bn]
;B[cp]
;W[cs]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: he woulda been ahead in territory, but look at what white gained from ko
kingkimchi: j18
kingkimchi: q12 and p12
kingkimchi: anyways any questions
kingkimchi: feels like its only been us 3
kingkimchi: any variations to discuss
kingkimchi: ill stay on another 15 mins
]
(;B[sa]
;W[sb]
;B[bs]
)(;B[bs]
;W[co]
;B[ri]
;W[oj]
;B[cp]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: Thank you for reviewing!
samuel_god: This game was chilling
kingkimchi: yeah i hope i explained things ok, english not my first language, dont know english go vocab either
]
;W[fr]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: game 2-3 were disasters for lee, but i think he can bounce back
kingkimchi: to recap, k12 really put b on the backfoot this entire game, a directional error
samuel_god: Would you think that another pro would be able to punish hiim for the rest of the game this badly after K12?
samuel_god: Or was alphago exceptional?
kingkimchi: i think i mentioned c11 vs c12
kingkimchi: 99% people would play c12
kingkimchi: its my first time seeing a move like c11
]
;B[gp]
;W[co]
;B[sk]
;W[oi]
;B[cp]
;W[bl]
;B[es]
;W[ak]
))(;W[rp]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: but its also very dangerous for white because both top left and and right group are not thick
]
;B[pi]
;W[qj]
;B[ph]
;W[rg]
;B[kh]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: Ouch
kingkimchi: so thats why white 90 went to a seemingly weird place
]
))(;W[pn]
;B[ql]
;W[qn]
;B[pl]
;W[qi]
;B[ml]
;W[mn]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: Why can't he straight up?
]
;B[oi]
))(;B[pr]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: I never understand how people look at huge areas like that and can just know nothing lives
]
;W[nr]
)(;B[or]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: p2 is prob best move to invade bottom
Enumaris: r6 seems like the standard shape to use P2 on tho
kingkimchi: true, but you have to know why play p2 in the first place
Enumaris: I'm not familiar with using p2 on R7 except for one Chinese lecture I watched which said white is satisfied enough with the corner so P2 is not as good 
Enumaris: as it is for the case where white has R6
kingkimchi: is the corner more valuable or the bottom center
Enumaris: I'm just sayin what the commentary said heh
kingkimchi: im not sure what was said, but you always play stone where you can get mroe value
kingkimchi: black wants to invade bottom center more than bottom corner
]
(;W[nq]
;B[qq]
;W[qp]
;B[rq]
;W[nr]C[

-- chat --
Enumaris: vs large knight, I thought regular approach is fine?  usually speaking 
kingkimchi: but white can prob just let it live a small corner and get sente 
]
)(;W[pr]
;B[oq]
;W[pq]
;B[kq]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: But alphago would defend better
samuel_god: So it evens out
kingkimchi: yeah, thats a whole different game, i cant speculate
]
)(;W[qq]
;B[lq]
;W[jq]C[

-- chat --
Enumaris: can white choose this if u p2?. From move 0: Q16 Q4 C16 D4 C6 F3 J16 R14 O17 R7 D10 E16 D17 E13 E14 D15 D14 C15 E17 F16 F14 F17 B16 H15 J15 H16 J17 H13 J14 G13 K12 C11 D13 D11 E11 B13 B12 B15 B11 C10 D12 D9 E10 C9 C12 G11 F12 D7 D6 F13 E12 F7 E9 E8 G9 J11 C7 F5 E6 F8 B9 B10 A10 H7 H10 H11 G10 K11 J8 K6 C4 C3 D3 D2 B3 E3 P2 R3 M3 K3 
]
;B[op]
;W[oo]
;B[pq]
)(;W[pq]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: q3 is better than r3
Enumaris: ok
kingkimchi: try it out in your own games and play around for a bit
kingkimchi: but generally the response is q2 for corner 
samuel_god: Does that only apply when R7 is in place?
samuel_god: Seems like a very specific situation to try out in my games
]
;B[pr]
;W[qr]
;B[rr]
;W[qq]
;B[lq]
;W[jq]C[

-- chat --
Enumaris: would that go this way?. From move 0: Q16 Q4 C16 D4 C6 F3 J16 R14 O17 R7 D10 E16 D17 E13 E14 D15 D14 C15 E17 F16 F14 F17 B16 H15 J15 H16 J17 H13 J14 G13 K12 C11 D13 D11 E11 B13 B12 B15 B11 C10 D12 D9 E10 C9 C12 G11 F12 D7 D6 F13 E12 F7 E9 E8 G9 J11 C7 F5 E6 F8 B9 B10 A10 H7 H10 H11 G10 K11 J8 K6 C4 C3 D3 D2 B3 E3 P2 Q3 Q2 R2 S2 R3 M3 K3 
]
;B[np]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: yes r7 
Enumaris: ok
]
;W[kl]
;B[cl]
;W[mr]
;B[lr]
;W[nr]
;B[oq]
;W[mo]
))(;B[nq]C[

-- chat --
Enumaris: cus if he kick and pincer..u should be able to do something to the corner..but maybe white too thick on left
]
(;W[or]
(;B[pq]
)(;B[kq]
)(;B[nr]
;W[oq]
;B[kq]
;W[kl]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: because of the ko on left, any white stone like l8 would be sente
]
;B[bl]
;W[lp]
;B[lq]
;W[jr]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: the odds arent good, but i just showed a very basic variation, obviously lee would do better
]
))(;W[pq]
(;B[mn]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: sometimes even if you can get two eyes, if white becomes too thick as a result
kingkimchi: the gains and losses really balance out
samuel_god: But
samuel_god: If it's all white's anywa
samuel_god: y
samuel_god: Then why does thickness hurt?
kingkimchi: keep in mind theres still a ko on left, black cant really afford to have two groups with no eye
]
)(;B[kq]
)))(;B[ki]
;W[kj]
(;B[lj]
)(;B[li]
;W[jk]
)))(;B[bq]
))(;B[or]
;W[bl]
;B[cl]
;W[ak]
;B[dl]
;W[ai]
;B[ah]
;W[bm]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: theres a ko here. the two extra stones in the corner helps in this event
]
))(;B[qh]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: And because of O17, jump into the corner would be terrible there, right?
kingkimchi: i dont think he expected c11, perhaps c12
]
;W[cj]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: big difference here
kingkimchi: does that answer your question why lee couldnt give up the 3 stones there
]
))(;W[ch]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: pros right now prefer white
kingkimchi: in general, they say its easier
kingkimchi: i think lee may have expected c12, then black can let go of the three stones
]
(;B[en]
(;W[pi]
)(;W[bp]
(;B[qh]
)(;B[gp]
;W[gq]
;B[qh]
)))(;B[qh]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: attack 414 like robert said
kingkimchi: r14
kingkimchi: or go E6
kingkimchi: but because the white stone is c11
]
)))(;B[ci]
(;W[ig]C[

-- chat --
RobertT: k12 is to set up for  an attack on r15 stone but right now it is bigger to defend the left
RobertT: r14*
]
)(;W[jh]
)))(;B[ic]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: I play it a lot
kingkimchi: this is the high chinese
]
)(;B[id]C[

-- chat --
samuel_god: What's the deal with playing a line higher
kingkimchi: so the stone is on 4th line instead of third
samuel_god: Well yes
kingkimchi: generally speaking, stones on third line is more territory driven
samuel_god: But the chinese is already very moyo oriented, no?
kingkimchi: whereas stone on fourth like high chinese is better for early skirmishes
samuel_god: So it invites fighting instead of moyo building?
samuel_god: Because the moyo is SO extreme?
kingkimchi: tbh i dont play chinese opening alot, i dont like it
]
;W[dg]
;B[ed]
;W[dj]C[

-- chat --
kingkimchi: so like something like this very easily limits blacks ability 
kingkimchi: generally black wants a big group early, because komi is so hard
kingkimchi: anyways get back to the game
samuel_god: Ok
]
))