(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2018-01-15]
GN[13x13 Trials]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/291724]
PB[walken!]
PW[Flopsy]
BR[11k]
WR[2d]
TM[120]OT[20 fischer]
RE[W+64.5]
SZ[13]
KM[0.5]
RU[Japanese]
HA[4]
AB[dd][jj][jd][dj]

;W[kf]
;B[jf]
;W[jg]
;B[if]
;W[ke]
;B[kd]
;W[hj]TR[jg]SQ[ih]SQ[ii]TR[hj]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: first situation, right?
walken!: yes
Flopsy: where white is trying to play a stone that isn't well connected
Flopsy: this relationship is weak
walken!: so, j5 ?
Flopsy: right
]
(;B[gi]
;W[ig]
;B[hi]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white didn't connect right away
Flopsy: but was trying for more profit
]
;W[ij]
;B[ii]
;W[jk]
(;B[il]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: this was not so good
Flopsy: which was why this peep was bad
Flopsy: because there was real potential to cut
Flopsy: which was limiting white's options
elx: J3 would be better
Flopsy: yes, just cut directly, if you want to do something directly with the cutting point
]
;W[ik]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: peeping just asks white to fix the cutting point
Flopsy: and the second line stone at j2 is not so useful
Flopsy: in fact, it's so close to the edge that it's likely to be swallowed anyway
]
;B[hl]C[

-- chat --
elx: though some moves like this are good for creating damedzumari
]
;W[gk]
;B[fj]
;W[gl]
(;B[kl]TR[jl]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: at this point it felt like black was trying to save the stones
elx: Which would not work
Flopsy: but it's going to be hard, with white being able to poke in at will
Flopsy: and eliminate eyeshape
Flopsy: hard to get out of white's enclosure by walking around on the second line
]
;W[kk]
;B[lk]
;W[lj]
;B[li]
;W[ki]
;B[lh]
;W[kh]
;B[ji]
;W[kj]
;B[ll]
;W[jl]
;B[jm]
;W[cg]C[

-- chat --
walken!: yes
elx: Also those ongoing fights create opportunites for ko
Flopsy: white is still ahead of black
Flopsy: and black is no more alive
Flopsy: than before
Flopsy: also, white got sente
Flopsy: so, really sequence for black
wingZ: C3
wingZ: i mean
]
;B[dh]TR[cg]TR[dh]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: extreme basic shape analysis would say this is a shoulder hit on white
Flopsy: meaning, a solid attachment is most normal
]
(;W[bi]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: miai to G2 or that attachment
Flopsy: in the game, white used the knight's move
Flopsy: slightly faster, but it's easy to read that it can't be cut
Flopsy: that white played in the first place
Flopsy: to get under black and see into eyespace in the corner
Flopsy: in order to live, and make points
]
(;B[be]TR[dd]TR[be]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: game move wasn't so bad
Flopsy: definite relation
]
;W[ck]
;B[dk]
;W[cl]C[

-- chat --
walken!: was it better to answer c3 rather than b9 ?
elx: you mean C4?
]
;B[dl]
;W[ce]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white is sort of giving black territory
Flopsy: just trying to play solidly, at this point
Flopsy: part of why white was relaxed here
Flopsy: was it didn't seem like there would be the need to do anything terrifyingly complex in order to win
]
;B[cd]
;W[bf]
(;B[df]
;W[bd]
;B[cf]
;W[ae]
;B[ch]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: white aliready won
]
;W[bh]
;B[dg]
;W[bc]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: at this point
Flopsy: yeah
walken!: agree
Flopsy: black saves center group
Flopsy: but center territory is small
Flopsy: on this size board
]
;B[cc]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: and top is getting reduced
]
;W[je]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: then this cut
]
(;B[ie]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: in the game, black tried to save everything
]
;W[id]TR[jd]TR[kd]TR[ie]TR[if]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: and that got rough
Flopsy: this cut is hane at the head of two stones
Flopsy: twice
Flopsy: damaging on both sides
]
(;B[hf]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: black's move is too slow
elx: this extension is bad
]
;W[ic]C[

-- chat --
walken!: at this point I couldn't decide on what to save
]
(;B[gc]C[

-- chat --
elx: 8 can escape
Flopsy: 8?
]
;W[ld]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: after white goes here, the corner is captured
Flopsy: and white is far ahead
]
;B[jc]
;W[jb]
;B[hg]
;W[gd]
;B[hd]
;W[hc]
;B[he]
;W[gb]
;B[fc]
;W[fb]
;B[ec]
;W[bb]
;B[ih]
;W[db]
;B[lg]
;W[kg]
;B[le]
;W[lf]
;B[gm]
;W[fm]
;B[fk]
;W[cm]
;B[cj]
;W[bj]
;B[hm]
;W[fl]
;B[mj]
;W[ci]
;B[di]
;W[eb]
;B[hb]
;W[kc]
;B[mm]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: every forcing move is a lost opportunity for other forcing moves
]
;W[dc]
(;B[ed]C[

-- chat --
elx: However a move like this won me one of recent games
Flopsy: pressing yourself to get to the right answer at e10 here quickly
Flopsy: for example
elx: other player passed thinking it was harmless
Flopsy: means that you'll have the good moves coming to the top of your mind more readily
Flopsy: the game is about pattern recognition
Flopsy: you can't brute force the reading, but have to build on a feel for patterns
Flopsy: if the good patterns come to mind more readily
Flopsy: it will be easier to put together longer sequences of probably-good moves
Flopsy: and read more deeply
Flopsy: your game will get better
Flopsy: so do both
Flopsy: don't just play on instinct
Flopsy: but try not to overread it
Flopsy: right
Flopsy: connecting is pretty much the best thing to do
Flopsy: in any case the cutting point needs defense
elx: Why does it need to be answered? Black just protects his own shape
Flopsy: that's answering white
Flopsy: it was white's move that needed an answer
elx: Ah, right. Yes of cours H10 needs answering
elx: There was a tsumego about it
Flopsy: anyway, that's how I felt about this game, roughly
Flopsy: black clung too much to dead stones
Flopsy: and made a few other shape mistakes
Flopsy: and didn't really split white effectively
Flopsy: got a bit sidetracked from that goal
Flopsy: so white won
Flopsy: sure
Flopsy: white wasn't trying to kill everything
Flopsy: didn't have to
Flopsy: right
Flopsy: in your case, it was more like you tried to live with everything
Flopsy: there were a few places where you'd be better off sacrificing stones
Flopsy: and getting forcing moves in exchange
Flopsy: either to split white in lower right
Flopsy: or to prevent white from getting the top
]
;W[cb]C[

-- chat --
walken!: elx, yes b3
elx: What's up with e10?
]
;B[de]C[

-- chat --
walken!: right
walken!: elx, he meant if I didn't play there I'd lose more of the top
]
;W[bg]
;B[im]
;W[gj]
;B[el]
;W[be]
;B[mf]
;W[]
;B[]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: whee!
Flopsy: alright
walken!: right
Flopsy: yeah, A and B are miai against n6 potential eye
walken!: I see it now
Flopsy: and C and D are miai to limit black to just one eye
Flopsy: as you see, white got a little bit more on the top
Flopsy: by connecting left and right sides
elx: regarding position here
elx: or at the end
Flopsy: but basically the bulk of the score difference was decided by move 59
walken!: so I don't know why I didn't realize much earlier that the outside black group was dead dead dead
Flopsy: yeah
walken!: for some reason I thought it could live
Flopsy: not realizing that lost you a lot of points
walken!: yes
Flopsy: so it's not just connection itself that you need to be thinking about
Flopsy: but eyeshape too, at this point
Flopsy: be on the lookout for false eyes
Flopsy: too many places needed connection
walken!: right
Flopsy: so, not enough eyeshape
Flopsy: just two half eyes
Flopsy: (that's a way of describing an eye that could be made in gote)
walken!: I can most often deal with such things in for example elx games, because we tend to play slower and the board is smaller
walken!: but I can't just glance at it and see it
Flopsy: You had time here to think it out
Flopsy: It's true that I pressed you to think a little faster
Flopsy: because I think you should try
walken!: yes, I play quite slow in general
Flopsy: but you could have sat for a minute to try to settle that issue
walken!: not sure how to get better at that
Flopsy: given how important it was
walken!: I've been playing some bot games faster but I blunder a lot.
]
;W[em]
;B[dm]
;W[jh]
;B[al]C[

-- chat --
elx: What is answer for white?. From move 104: E1 D1 K6 A2 
]
;W[bk]C[

-- chat --
elx: questio for walken
Flopsy: this. From move 104: E1 D1 K6 A2 B3 
elx: No, I know that
Flopsy: yeah, just saw
elx: But if I was playing black I would have tried this 
Flopsy: my point is that you know some of the patterns
walken!: thanks for the game
walken!: yup :(
walken!: actually as you said before we even started
elx: Flopsy: at least black made some living shapes
walken!: don't try to kill everything
elx: on 9x9 I manage to kill all opponent shapes sometimes
walken!: no, you told me, don't try to kill everything
elx: Yes, but if you manage to win by killing every single opponet stone it's cool isn't it?
walken!: but somehow.... :)
walken!: right
walken!: that lower black group started because I wanted to prevent you making eye space and I kinda knew it'd be weak but somehow I clung to it
elx: Not every forcing move is good
elx: so what is your opinion about moves like this?
walken!: they are worth trying :)
elx: not against stronger player
walken!: no strong opinion - if you know the move should not work, you may try something larger first, but if all the large stuff it gone, it's ok to try
elx: This isn't just small it has zero value
walken!: at some point if the chance of it working is very low, maybe you don't try anymore not to bore your opponent, but you and I both blunder enough still that it's worty trying such things.
elx: I blunder less :P
walken!: :)
walken!: well either way, I've enjoyed both our games
walken!: I have to go bed soon but I'll want to play with you more.
walken!: and I'm kicking myself for not closing the deal on this last game.
elx: what deal?
walken!: I mean getting from a winning position to an actual win
walken!: yes
walken!: I was never in a winning position in this game. except maybe before playing the first move as I had the handicap :)
]
)(;B[de]
;W[ed]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: prevents this pain
]
;B[ee]
;W[fe]
;B[ff]
;W[ge]
;B[gf]C[

-- chat --
elx: You said good answer to it
]
;W[fd]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: pain
]
))(;B[jb]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: to save the corner, black has to protect the eyespace
Flopsy: but, it's looking a little bit dicey even so
]
))(;B[ge]C[

-- chat --
elx: How about G8
Flopsy: jumping is better, if you just want to move these center stones out
]
)(;B[ic]
;W[hd]
;B[hc]
(;W[gd]
;B[gc]
;W[fd]
;B[fc]
)(;W[hf]
;B[gd]
;W[he]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: still probably save the top
elx: But white gets a lot of freedom with that shape
elx: empty bubles are very hard to fight against when you just get straight lines
]
;B[ld]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: that's where the big territory is
Flopsy: black shoudl be able to handle these cutting points
Flopsy: without any big death
Flopsy: white has 100% life, pretty much
Flopsy: after capturing the center stones
Flopsy: but, is limited in the area where this strong group can exert influence
Flopsy: if white can't break into the top by cutting
Flopsy: the territorial impact of this group's influence won't be so great
]
;W[gc]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: but ladder breaking is one of the benefits of having stones on the outside
]
;B[fd]C[

-- chat --
elx: Can black save g5 to k4 line?
Flopsy: here?
elx: g11
elx: it has 8 on 
Flopsy: right
Flopsy: black has covered this stone
Flopsy: and confined it to the top
Flopsy: how do you plan to make it escape?
Flopsy: hah, no
]
;W[jc]C[

-- chat --
elx: Actually is influence all about who ladders favor?
]
;B[jb]
;W[de]
;B[ee]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white can't really cut it off
]
;W[be]C[

-- chat --
elx: Then black just connects
]
;B[gg]TR[ef]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: no cutting point works here
]
;W[ec]C[

-- chat --
elx: In this fork after 70 it can extend while 10 is caught in ladder
Flopsy: you want to peep here?
]
;B[ed]
;W[cb]
;B[db]
;W[bb]
;B[eb]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: yeah, I don't really think white is getting out of this
elx: White can extend to up
elx: And cut at f8
elx: I mean try to make a semeai for black life
Flopsy: f8 not a cutting point
Flopsy: it won't work
]
(;W[ff]
;B[ef]C[

-- chat --
elx: E8
]
)(;W[ef]
;B[ff]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white has nil for liberties
Flopsy: and black will still connect
]
;W[eg]
;B[eh]
;W[fg]
;B[fh]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: can't stop the capture of the cutting stone
elx: Yeah this ladder favors black
]
))))(;B[id]
;W[ie]
;B[hd]
;W[he]
;B[ge]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: black can still save the top
Flopsy: but white has enough to win
]
))(;B[bd]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: expected maybe this
]
)(;B[gd]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: or this, even better
elx: Black is rather high here
]
;W[bd]
;B[bc]
;W[ae]
;B[cb]LB[gi:A]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: black has few worries in taking the upper side
Flopsy: only concern is this A group
Flopsy: white is not going to lose if black just gets the top
]
;W[ff]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: 4. From move 43: G10 B10 B11 A9 C12 F8 
Flopsy: yes, around there would be where white may try
wingZ: and blak would suffer considerable damage
]
))(;B[ch]
(;W[bh]
(;B[bg]
;W[bf]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: black is basically just giving white even better shape by trying to cut directly like this
Flopsy: the cutting stone dies immediately
wingZ: it is appropriate move in this situation perhaps
]
;B[cf]
;W[dg]
;B[eg]
;W[df]
;B[ef]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: 3. From move 35: C6 B6 B7 B8 C8 D7 E7 D8 E8 
wingZ: some aji if the black is strong in middle
Flopsy: sometimes you might se that attempt at fighting, but it's tough
]
)(;B[bf]
;W[bg]
;B[cf]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: can limit white's eyespace on the top
wingZ: yes white live with 3-3 invasion
Flopsy: by peeping that connection, where you probably had no chance to cut
]
;W[ck]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: but white can jump to 3-3
wingZ: in sente too
Flopsy: which was part o fthe meaning of the knight's move
]
))(;AB[bh]
))(;AB[bf]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: it isokay but
Flopsy: you might also try it here, when playing form that direction
walken!: I hesitated with that one too
wingZ: strengthening the weak group is priority rite?
]
)(;B[bj]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: it might be more forceful this way
]
;W[ci]
;B[cj]
;W[bd]TR[bd]TR[cg]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: this knight's move is weaker
]
;B[be]
;W[ce]
;B[cd]
;W[bf]
;B[bc]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white may get closed in to live real small
Flopsy: black sacrificed the stone to get forcing moves
Flopsy: now top left is looking like a black corner, maybe
walken!: right
]
))(;W[ch]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: but that doesn't make eyespace quick enough
]
;B[ci]TR[dh]TR[ci]TR[dj]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: you can
wingZ: but not severe
Flopsy: and also allows black to make good shape in response
wingZ: B10
wingZ: fast eye space and enough to live
Flopsy: this tiger mouth is also hane at the head of two stones
wingZ: with aji at C4
]
))(;B[kh]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: better to let them be for now
elx: It's better to abandon lost fights and look for opportunities elsewhere
walken!: black kept being worried about white making eyes rather than about white connecting.
Flopsy: right
Flopsy: black was increasing the size of the loss on the right
]
))(;B[kk]TR[hi]TR[ii]TR[hj]TR[ij]TR[jj]TR[jk]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: I was concerned about stuff like this
Flopsy: double hane
Flopsy: a sort of natural flow from the hane at the head of two stones
Flopsy: which black already had
Flopsy: now, black has cutting points
walken!: yes
Flopsy: but white's j3 cut is very severe
Flopsy: since the two stones have very few liberties
Flopsy: and are right against black's wall
Flopsy: or keep splitting
]
(;W[kj]
;B[ji]
;W[kl]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: making it hard to play atari forcefully
]
;B[lk]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: you should usually extend once from this atari
Flopsy: to make more liberties
Flopsy: even if the stones are fated to be captured
Flopsy: black will get more forcing moves from them
walken!: right. and then probably 7 at j3
]
;W[ll]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: well, say white tries to capture
]
;B[ik]
;W[jl]
(;B[hk]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: then the other side will definitely drop
Flopsy: white will lose the two stones
]
)(;B[ki]
;W[lj]
;B[li]
;W[mk]
(;B[il]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: it might be even worse, like this
Flopsy: black is sealing white in entirely
Flopsy: and playing a somewhat less secure shape in the effort to swallow the 2 white stones on a bigger scale
]
;W[hk]
;B[hl]TR[gi]TR[dj]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white is in hane on both ends of 2 stones
Flopsy: very very difficult shape
Flopsy: particularly with black supporting stones
]
;W[gk]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: evades immediate capture
Flopsy: but white can't capture black immediately either
Flopsy: it would be a somewhat long fight
]
)(;B[hk]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: and often simpler is better
]
)))(;W[jl]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: in any case, white may have to draw back
]
;B[kj]TR[ji]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: and now the splitting works effective
walken!: right
Flopsy: white has to worry about living in two places at once, now
Flopsy: how do you feel about this k5 cutting point?
elx: Ladder here doesn't work
walken!: yes
Flopsy: sure, no ladder
elx: So should black cover it?
Flopsy: either one of you want to show the best variation for black, if white cuts now?
]
;W[ji]
;B[jh]
;W[ki]
;B[kh]
;W[li]
;B[lh]
;W[lj]C[

-- chat --
walken!: which I think is what I should be doing ?
]
;B[lk]C[

-- chat --
walken!: do I have it ?
Flopsy: yes, good
Flopsy: just drive them to the edge
walken!: makes sense
Flopsy: stones with 2 liberties on the 2nd line are dead, pretty much
Flopsy: it's the line of defeaat
walken!: but hard for me to read before doing the double hane
]
))(;B[ki]TR[kg]TR[ik]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: even if you played some gentler shape
Flopsy: to make sure that you could handle the cutting point
walken!: right
Flopsy: note that the splitting is still quite effective
walken!: so priority is avoid connection
Flopsy: and black can look forward to cutting white later
walken!: I was worried about giving too much space to white for it to make eyes without connecting
Flopsy: you'll win the war even if white gets some territory
Flopsy: don't need to kill everything
elx: j3 cut works because ladder favors black 
walken!: right
Flopsy: however you do it, it's your basic strategic goal
Flopsy: split white
Flopsy: even if you make kind of slack shape, splitting still creates worries on both sides
Flopsy: about how to live
Flopsy: how to manage cutting points
Flopsy: yes, often low moves are key in life and death
walken!: damedzumari ?
Flopsy: but that's only after a group is pretty much entirely enclosed
Flopsy: shortage of liberties, walken
elx: it's what I was trying to do with your groups
elx: That ladder and stuff
elx: i was trying hard to recover from my bluders
Flopsy: anyway, hope this was instructive
walken!: ah, yes
Flopsy: I do think the correct way to learn from handicap games is to attack
walken!: it definitely was
Flopsy: keep this large-scale splitting idea in mind
elx: Not every splitting is good though
Flopsy: well, it's important to split groups that aren't 100% alive, for example
Flopsy: the idea is to pressure the groups that you split
Flopsy: if they are so strong that they cannot be endangered, then it's not so effective
Flopsy: but as white opens like this
elx: Also splitting stones even if they are caught in ladders or stuff can help in future
Flopsy: there will be plenty of groups trying to mke life
Flopsy: alright, so, let's call that a review
walken!: thanks
Flopsy: you're welcome
walken!: btw, do you two (elx & flopsy) know each other ?
Flopsy: I only know elx as well as you
walken!: ok, I was just wondering
Flopsy: just seen you playing and talking
walken!: :)
Flopsy: so took a little time to try to help
walken!: well we definitely appreciate the help
Flopsy: alright, good to hear
Flopsy: then, keep practicing
elx: do you mean game vs me?
elx: ok, returned to that game. What exact postio did you mean
]
;W[lh]
;B[ik]
;W[hk]
;B[il]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: yes, j3 cut is annoying
]
(;W[jl]
;B[hl]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: pain for white
]
)(;W[hl]
;B[jl]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: also, pain
walken!: let white make territiories but make it fight for each, rather than connecting all its stones together
]
;W[kk]
;B[kl]
;W[lk]
;B[ll]
;W[kj]
;B[ji]
;W[li]
;B[mk]
;W[lj]LB[hj:A]LB[ll:B]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: now it is capturing race
Flopsy: what's the liberty situation?
Flopsy: White A group has 4, right?
elx: White can extend to H1
Flopsy: black B group has 5
Flopsy: and, it's black's move
Flopsy: this is looking favorable for black
elx: I think it favors black
elx: but perhaps there's some trick for white
]
;B[gl]
;W[gk]
;B[fl]
;W[fk]
;B[ek]
;W[ej]
;B[el]LB[fj:A]LB[hm:B]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: white may be able to squeeze out
Flopsy: but black has miai
Flopsy: the corner won't die
]
(;W[fi]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: if white tries moving out
]
(;B[hm]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: black connects under
Flopsy: and in this case white made a mistake, too
]
)(;B[fj]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: and white could just die like this
]
(;W[gj]
;B[hm]
;W[fj]
;B[fh]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: 1. From move 13: L5 M6 J3 H3 J2 H2 K2 L3 L2 M3 M2 L4 K5 M5 N3 M4 G2 G3 F2 F3 E3 E4 E2 F5 F4 G4 H1 F4 F6 
wingZ: no
wingZ: black ladder
wingZ: what are you teaching mate
]
)(;W[hm]
;B[ei]
;W[gj]
;B[im]
;W[ej]
;B[gm]
;W[fj]
;B[fh]C[

-- chat --
wingZ: 2. From move 13: L5 M6 J3 H3 J2 H2 K2 L3 L2 M3 M2 L4 K5 M5 N3 M4 G2 G3 F2 F3 E3 E4 E2 F5 F4 H1 E5 G4 J1 E4 G1 F4 F6 
wingZ: no escape there
wingZ: everything
wingZ: falls down to the basic shape
wingZ: he need to recognize the vital point
]
)))(;W[fj]
;B[ei]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: and yeah
Flopsy: even here
Flopsy: it's grim
Flopsy: the liberties are just too tight
]
))))(;B[ii]C[

-- chat --
walken!: makes sense
Flopsy: walk out with your own group
Flopsy: and split whtie
walken!: my though at the time was push you against my closest stone
walken!: but yeah, that didn't make much sense.
]
;W[hi]
;B[ih]
;W[hh]
;B[ig]C[

-- chat --
Flopsy: the white stones are at odds
Flopsy: push against black to help one side
Flopsy: and the other gets harmes
]
))