(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
GN[Demo Board]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/314846]
PB[Black]
PW[White]
BR[3p]
WR[3p]
OT[Error: time control missing]
RE[?]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]

;B[pd]
;W[dp]
;B[pp]
;W[dd]
;B[jp]
;W[qn]C[

-- chat --
RobertT: so like here, you have k4 stone to help in any fight
RobertT: so pincer is a good option
RobertT: if k4 wasn't there
walken: makes sense
RobertT: then the bottom and the right are identical distance
RobertT: so instead of pincer, you should just play o3
walken: playing o3 would look like my stones are too concentrated and I'm giving up the right side
RobertT: you're just stabilizing your stones
walken: (I mean, since k4 is here)
RobertT: its a very strong shape so you can tenuki easily
RobertT: ah yes
RobertT: with k4 there then o3 isn't good
walken: makes sense. thanks.
RobertT: o4 is sometimes possible with k4 there
RobertT: if you can make a moyo
RobertT: but because d4 stone is white
RobertT: you can't make a moyo on the bottom easily
]
(;B[ql]C[Pincer is good when
- you already have stones on the other side (like black K4 here)
- OR, when the pincer side is obviously larger than the other side.

In other cases, one should back off instead (such as taking the opposite knights move).]
;W[qq]C[

-- chat --
walken: so when chosing the direction, I can block there only if I already have a stone on the border, that makes sense
RobertT: yes
walken: how much should I look at the other (right) border ?
RobertT: what do you mean?
walken: "wider side" sounds like I need to look at both sides :)
walken: and right now I only understand what I'm looking for on the lower side
RobertT: you're looking at both sides. its just the wider side is talking about side extensions
RobertT: basically look at the 1/4th of the board that the joseki is played in for extensions
RobertT: the opposite corner only come into play when there isn't a side extensions on either side
walken: if we were at move 8 but I had an extra stone around R13, do I still block on Q3 ?
RobertT: its the next extension stone
RobertT: so r8
RobertT: if you have a stone at r13
RobertT: then the first extension stone is still r8
RobertT: so in this case both sides have extensions
RobertT: k4 and r8
RobertT: k4 is wider so you block that side
RobertT: if k4 wasnt there
walken: all right, makes sense.
RobertT: then only r8 has extension
RobertT: so you bock r8 side
RobertT: if r8 isn't there
RobertT: then k4 is the side with an extension
RobertT: so you block that side
RobertT: if neither k4 or r8 is there
RobertT: then you look at the corners
RobertT: q16 stone is black and d4 is white
RobertT: so you want the wall facing your q16 stone
walken: I was confused because I felt like k4 is already part of the joseki - just put it there as answer to the knights approach
walken: so I thought we were only looking at other stones for context
RobertT: k4 is just a surrounding stone
walken: err not k4 - I meant r8
RobertT: ah
RobertT: you look at the stones when the direction choice is made
RobertT: not before starting the joseki
RobertT: here you have a direction choice so you look at the stones on the board
walken: yes, that makes sense now.
RobertT: whenever you have a stone on the side like k4, its kind of textbook position to pincer
RobertT: same with the 3-4 stone
RobertT: like if q4 was q3
RobertT: and they approach
RobertT: its the same, you pincer
walken: so coming back to move 8, (I'm assuming R8 will stay there as I play it as part of the joseki), I should block on the left if I have a stone on the low side, somewhere between ~H and ~M columns
RobertT: yep
RobertT: the pincer stone can be in some other locations and you will still block that way
RobertT: like if you did 2 space high pincer
walken: if it's closer, better switch directions. and if it's farther, not sure if it still matters ? considering I also have the opposite corner on the right side
RobertT: you would still block
walken: ok
walken: thanks
RobertT: basically, I would block bottom side as long as k4 isn't closer than m4
RobertT: but that would be a very odd distance for a black stone to be
RobertT: np
walken: much clearer now :)
RobertT: cya
]
(;B[pq]C["Block on the wide side". Black has a stone at K4 which is farther away than R8, so black should block here at Q3.


-- chat --
RobertT: think of both r8 and k4 as extensions from the corner
RobertT: if you block q3 side then k4 is farther away
RobertT: than if you blocked on r4 side
RobertT: you look for the next stone of your color, not the farthest away
RobertT: so r8 is the next stone, not q16
RobertT: understand?
walken: hmmm, makes sense I guess
RobertT: also you're looking for moves on the side instead of the far away corner
walken: so - for joseki selection the Q16 stone is mostly irrelevant then ?
]
;W[qp]
;B[po]
;W[rn]
;B[om]C[The K4 stone is working very efficiently now.

If it wasn't there, white would now move at K3 or K4 to neutralize black's wall.

-- chat --
RobertT: another thing is this joseki ends in gote
RobertT: so this joseki needs a side extension already
RobertT: if not, white can just take away the extension with the sente
walken: yes.
RobertT: like if k4 doesn't exist, whites next move would be k3
RobertT: or j3
RobertT: before you start the joseki, that's a completely different direction choice
RobertT: another tip for pincers
]
)(;B[qp]C[If the K4 black stone was closer (say around N3/N4 or closer), or if there was no black stone on the lower side, then better to switch directions and block at R4.]
;W[pq]
;B[op]
;W[rp]
;B[ro]
;W[rq]
;B[qo]
;W[nq]C[The K4 stone looks useless now - it won't be able to build much territory because of white's strong group peeking out at O3.

If the K4 stone was closer (N3 or N4) it would be a lot more useful.

-- chat --
RobertT: it is relevant 
RobertT: if there aren't extensions
walken: I'm thinking the other joseki would work well if I had a stone around R13 or so
walken: I can see that Q16 is too far
RobertT: actually in this board position
RobertT: the main reason why this joseki is bad
RobertT: is because o3 makes the k4 stone useless
RobertT: k4 wants to build a side framework
RobertT: and o3 undercuts the territory it can make later
walken: ah yes.
RobertT: so if you remove that stone
RobertT: and put it somewhere else
RobertT: then this direction choice is fine
RobertT: usually you only want to pincer when you 1) have stones nearby (like k4 is here)
RobertT: or 2) when the pincer side is obviously bigger than the other side
RobertT: otherwise, you should just back off
RobertT: (or in the case of 3-4 stones you can take the corner)
]
))(;B[nq]C[O3 is bad here because black already has a stone at K4 and the black group can't extend much because white has a stone at D4.


-- chat --
RobertT: black o3 is similar idea to if white play o3 instead of r6 and you responded with m4
RobertT: it's kind of redundant since you already have a stone in that area
walken: makes sense.
]
)(;B[pn]
;W[pm]
;B[on]
;W[qo]
;B[qp]
;W[qk]
;B[np]
))