(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
GN[Becoming 9 Kyu - Lesson 26]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/415447]
PB[Black]
PW[White]
BR[2d]
WR[2d]
OT[Error: time control missing]
RE[?]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]
C[

-- chat --
TheApprentice: mark5000, thanks for this " joseki lecture"
]
;B[qd]
;W[od]
(;B[ld]C[Hi! Let's look at the two-space high pincer, also known as the magic sword.

-- chat --
fishku: hi
Aobozu: nice!
aresdonuts: hey guys
clackie: hi!
aresdonuts: is there a discord or anything open for this?
PfvaldtherGroenholm: Hi and thanks in advance for the lecture
mark5000: No, this is a text lecture only.
aresdonuts: cool
CalabiYau: hi
AnthofromWorld: Hi thanks for the lesson 
CalabiYau: yeah thanks Mark !
aresdonuts: When did you start playing go mark?
Aobozu: Thanks Mark!
mark5000: I started playing Go 10 years ago in college. I joined a Go club there and got hooked. Then I studied a lot as a hobby and gradually increased rank over the years. I've been a dan player for a few years now.
mark5000: So this joseki isn't that hard.
mark5000: But actually it wasn't considered joseki until AlphaGo played it.
mark5000: I want to show you why, if that's ok.
user5555: please go on!
mark5000: It's more of historical interest, but you can learn other moves in the process.
p6109: of course
Burak23: yes please
user5555: thanks
Burak23: Thanks
ErikBolding: Thanks
mark5000: Cheers everyone. See you next week around about the same time.
ppn0405: Thanks
tmrbad: thank you
snakesss: ty o/
]
(;W[pg]C[This large knight's move is the most common continuation. This joseki, however, has many possible variations. So we'll come back to it later. Let's start with some easier josekis.]
)(;W[qc]C[This attachment is a simple move for White. This attachment intends to settle in the corner and then get out of danger quickly.

-- chat --
user5555: i think we all understand that... it's easy now to be clever with alphago at hand...
mark5000: Let's go back to this joseki
snakesss: they played without komi for years
snakesss: i am not surprised they missed this
mark5000: AlphaGo attaches here because otherwise Black gains the corner territory
mark5000: That's what it comes down to
mark5000: I recommend this move in your games
mark5000: If your opponent playing White plays P14, attach at P17.
]
(;B[rc]C[Black should hane in response to the attachment.

-- chat --
Wong Kar-Wai: Is this a preference thign?
]
;W[pc]C[White should draw back. And now there is a cutting point in black's shape. Black shouldn't miss this weakness and must defend it somehow.

-- chat --
mark5000: Good question
mark5000: Of course, a 4 dan knows this and so is just testing the beginners. ;) Does anybody know?
mark5000: White to punish Black's play elsewhere.
fishku: r15?
clackie: you could play s18 in sente
字成長: i think W play at S15
Fysh: s18?
Wong Kar-Wai: Clamp?
Burak23: S15 ?
GarthSchmader: r15
mark5000: I'm glad we talked about this, since we have a few answers.
mark5000: All of those moves punish Black, but some are better than others.
geotheory: How did white get 2 moves?
mark5000: Clamp at R15 is fine, but Black would live small on the side.
Аlрhа - 1 5 2: Hi, Mark!
mark5000: Bending at S18 is a bit more slack, letting Black fix the cutting point right afterwards.
geotheory: Pretty big 'if' when we're talking tactical battle?
Wong Kar-Wai: But R15 removes aji of him coming around your group into the middle?
fishku: Can we say that r15 might be viable if sente is big, as s15 seems to be gote?
clackie: to understand why some moves are better than others
mark5000: So if your opponent plays Q15, just take the corner.
]
(;B[re]C[This tiger's mouth is correct here.

-- chat --
Wong Kar-Wai: I prefer the influence and wall of R15 vs living small of S15.
mark5000: Yes, both moves are possible
mark5000: Let's get back to the main variation.
mark5000: Black should not play elsewhere at this point without a very good reason.
]
;W[of]TR[qf]TR[og]TR[pg]C[Then White has a few options. The simplest option is this jump to get out of danger. Other choices include the marked points.

-- chat --
Yaka_Go: what if black doesnt defend
geotheory: R12
jillgoodgal: white gets two local moves if black plays elsewhere
user5555: @geo: the board is big, you never know what else there is that B might want to do... and sometimes your opp just makes a mistake, then it is always good to know WHY this was a mistake...
Аlрhа - 1 5 2: Mark, What if black plays q15 instead of s15? Can it be good for anything?
user5555: ... it's not like we just hope that B will play stupid here ;-)
user5555: @geo: in my games, things like that happen all the time... and often I know this can't be good, but I don't really know why. So this is just as important as the main line, to me at least.
user5555: ... and then it is good to estimate how much better that has to be to compensate for the weakness you have to leave here...
]
;B[pg]C[Black should jump too. Jumping up to the fourth line is actually good here. This move takes as much territory as Black dares to take.

-- chat --
user5555: shows you what a good shape looks like, and what a bad shape might look like..
Burak23: what if white plays q13 instead of p14
mark5000: Q13 would be a good move too
mark5000: I don't have a refutation for that.
user5555: @geo: also, it might be the other way around: YOU might be in a game where there is some great play elsewhere on the board...
mark5000: You could call it joseki-ish
jillgoodgal: so now white continues to move out, or slides along the top?
mark5000: Yes.
]
(;W[qf]C[

-- chat --
Аlрhа - 1 5 2: How should B respond to this?. From move 0: R16 P16 M16 R17 S17 Q17 S15 P14 Q13 R14 
]
)(;W[og]C[To ensure a route into the center, since the White stones do not have a base, pushing once or twice is recommended.]
;B[ph]C[Black should block, since Black is on the fourth line and is happy to make fourth-line territory.

-- chat --
user5555: that looks pretty good for B now, doesn't it?
]
;W[id]TR[pg]TR[ph]C[Then White can pincer and attack. In this joseki, Black gained territory on the right. In exchange, White develops power so White can attack Black like this. Depending on the overall position, White can also choose other pincers. After this, both sides choose moves that suit the circumstances.

-- chat --
Burak23: maybe depending on the board attacking m16 next ? since white build a wall like thing 
fishku: it's fine to look good for B, since B started with 2 stones and W with 1.
mark5000: Yes, that's the purpose of this joseki.
clackie: now it looks pretty good for w
Wong Kar-Wai: I'd say it's quite balanced.
Wong Kar-Wai: Such a joseki gives white a good launching pad for reductions and middle influence.
p6109: better to pincer than make a base? at say N17
user5555: n17 is a big overconcentraded, no? white is not in trouble.
p6109: ok
mark5000: In this joseki, Black occupies the fourth line.
user5555: 'xactly.
mark5000: So why in the world would we EVER choose this joseki. We could make Black on the third line and settle for less.
clackie: because the pincer stone is super weak and if black doesn't live it somehow white gets huge territory
mark5000: That reasoning made this joseki rare among pros for a very long time.
snakesss: but doesnt white have more eyespace and thickness now?
mark5000: Yes and yes.
mark5000: This pattern wasn't really "bad." It was considered slightly inferior.
mark5000: Because professionals don't like giving opponents free points without significant cost.
mark5000: Fast forward to the year 2016.
mark5000: It is AlphaGo versus Lee Sedol 9p, game of the century already, and AlphaGo plays this as the first joseki is plays.
mark5000: AlphaGo is White.
mark5000: And AlphaGo attaches at R17.
mark5000: I was watching the match live on my TV, streaming the broadcast from the internet, and Michael Redmond was commentating.
mark5000: He and the Korean commentator mentioned how this joseki was surprising, and they played out the other one below.
mark5000: They said how happy Black was to get the fourth line placement.
mark5000: And then AlphaGo won.
mark5000: Of course there's a lot of stuff in between, but I want to focus in on why AlphaGo might have chosen this joseki.
snakesss: it knew it would win and wanted the extra benefit of puny humans thinking this joseki is good?
mark5000: Hahaha
mark5000: I think you'll agree that this joseki isn't very hard. Try it out!
mark5000: That's all I have prepared for today's lecture.
p6109: thanks
user5555: thx a lot
user5555: gg
user5555: ;)
clackie: the attach at r17 still seems scary to me
tmrbad: thank you mark5000
mark5000: This lecture is part of my lecture series on becoming 9 kyu. Find past lectures here: https://forums.online-go.com/t/becoming-9-kyu-a-series-for-beginners/3809
Fysh: very instructive - thanks !
snakesss: that white dragon will die at the hands of ddks
mark5000: Any questions?
user5555: what if b cuts after r17?
user5555: at q17
]
))(;B[aa]C[

-- chat --
PfvaldtherGroenholm: S15?
]
)(;AW[re]C[If Black doesn't defend the cutting point, this peep is the most severe answer.]
(;B[rd]C[If Black defends now,]
;W[qe]C[White climbs up, and Black is in deep trouble. This kind of fight is unbearable for Black, who is feeling intense physical pain because of the play elsewhere.

-- chat --
jillgoodgal: plus white starts to get thickness pointed down the right side
mark5000: welcome
]
)(;B[qe]C[Even if Black draws back, which is a better reply,]
;W[rd]C[White can just cut, since White has a liberty advantage in the capturing race.]
;B[rf]C[

-- chat --
clackie: black tneuki
]
;W[rb]
;B[se]
;W[sc]C[

-- chat --
geotheory: @user5555 of course that could happen, but then we're not talking about fighting black's top game are we..
geotheory: @user55 I get that. I just don't see value in hypothesising about such moves in context of a tight tactical contest
]
))(;AW[qe]C[This clamp is also possible.

-- chat --
user5555: @geo: it's not a big if at all... it's just a variation to show why black has to defend here.
]
;B[re]C[Black would bend here.

-- chat --
user5555: ... and to see how white would punish if B didn't.
]
;W[pd]
;B[rd]
;W[qf]
;B[rf]
;W[qg]C[This kind of pattern would likely result, with Black settling small on the right side and White building influence.

-- chat --
mark5000: fishku, sure. It's a bit beyond the level of this lecture though.
]
)(;B[pe]C[Black might play here trying to avoid playing a defense on the second line, but it's better to just defend.

-- chat --
mark5000: Good question, too.
user5555: i was wondering about Q15 also
mark5000: This looks better than playing elsewhere. It does defend the cutting point somewhat
mark5000: Of course it doesn't actually defend the cutting point does it?
mark5000: White can reactivate it while gaining points in the corner.
Wong Kar-Wai: S15 again?
Аlрhа - 1 5 2: S16
]
;W[rb]C[White can reactivate the cutting point and make points in the corner at the same time.]
;B[rd]C[

-- chat --
Аlрhа - 1 5 2: 1. From move 0: R16 P16 M16 R17 S17 Q17 Q15 S18 S16 
geotheory: @user55 I tenuki frequently in first half of the game. Makes it harder for oppo to guess your strategy imo
geotheory: Not that I'm any kind of authority in this game..
]
))(;B[pc]C[

-- chat --
Burak23: Thanks for the lesson Mark 
user5555: yep
mark5000: Maybe this is your secret dagger, a trick your oppoennts will always botch
user5555: thanks for the extensive answer though
user5555: it's not that easy
user5555: even if the cut is not correct...
mark5000: As I said, departing from joseki can be good. Stay creative. Know joseki so you know when you're breaking it.
mark5000: Know the rules to break them.
mark5000: In this case the rule is S17 hane.
mark5000: Any other questions?
]
;W[pd]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: How does Black continue?
user5555: they< do this allthe time to me
snakesss: q18?
snakesss: extend weakest stone?
mark5000: It's an overplay. Otherwise it would be joseki.
]
(;B[pb]
;W[qb]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: White has to stay tough.
snakesss: is it o17 now? cuz b still not safe
snakesss: or just take lliberties?
mark5000: There's a well-known tesuji here
snakesss: in the corner? i dont think that works
snakesss: s18=
snakesss: what is it?
mark5000: The dan players will see it.
snakesss: i go out of sync 
]
(;B[rb]C[

-- chat --
user5555: some graveyard thing?
mark5000: Tesuji.
mark5000: Belly attachment
snakesss: /me is DAN
mark5000: https://senseis.xmp.net/?BellyAttachmentTesuji
user5555: but it thought its BAD for black?
mark5000: Read about it ^^
user5555: how is that bad?
snakesss: btw mark, is there a bug with sync?
user5555: I'm sure you're right, but I don't see it...
mark5000: Honestly your opponents will never play here will they
snakesss: hahahaa
]
;W[rd]
;B[qe]
;W[rc]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Because unfortunately the tesuji doesn't work.
mark5000: :(
user5555: hehe
mark5000: White simply ataries and connects.
]
;B[nc]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Anyway, Black plays here
mark5000: The exchange is still useful
mark5000: Now WHite's turn for tesuji
mark5000: Anyone see the tesuji here?
tmrbad: r14 ?
]
;W[qf]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Nose hit
]
;B[pe]
;W[re]
;B[pf]
;W[qg]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: After all this, White is better
user5555: that is good for w?
snakesss: black was gonna net those 2 but if white just escapes then w got a weak group
]
;B[ne]C[

-- chat --
snakesss: so instead of netting, w uses those 2 stones as a sacrifice to get the right?
mark5000: In gote
snakesss: inread of escaping the net*
mark5000: Look how over-concentrated Black is!
snakesss: instead*
mark5000: So many stones in such a small area.
mark5000: Black is horrible
mark5000: horrorible
user5555: yes but W as just as many stones here...
snakesss: white isnt that great either imo
tmrbad: thank you
mark5000: And the two white stones have aji
user5555: and only a few pts
snakesss: b got thickness and the upper side
mark5000: Hmm
snakesss: i like black tbh :S
]
)(;B[qe]C[

-- chat --
user5555: so its more of a badsuji
]
;W[of]
;B[rb]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Black needs an extra stone, typically
mark5000: Then this tesuji is soo good
]
)(;B[nc]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: They're cowards and so will play here
]
;W[qe]C[

-- chat --
user5555: hehe
]
;B[rd]
;W[re]C[

-- chat --
snakesss: hey, that was my first choice :P
mark5000: Then you kill them to death
mark5000: There. White is better
snakesss: ez pz
mark5000: The badsuji is still a goodsuji
snakesss: iif you can follow it up with more goodsujis
]
))(;B[qb]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Black can also resist here
]
;W[rc]C[

-- chat --
snakesss: does anyone go out of sync without clicking anything?
user5555: still looks pretty good for B?
]
;B[rd]C[

-- chat --
user5555: yep
]
;W[pb]
;B[oc]
;W[rb]
;B[ob]
;W[qa]C[

-- chat --
user5555: yes of course
]
;B[nd]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Probably Black should confine White to the corner.
user5555: so q17 doesnt look that bad after all...?!
snakesss: i like white
user5555: i'm not sure
snakesss: b got one weak group and weakish group
user5555: b has 4th line terr on top
]
;W[ne]C[

-- chat --
user5555: white only small corner
]
;B[mc]
;W[me]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Do you still like Black?
user5555: both have a weak fgroup
user5555: well b q15...
Burak23: looks bad somehow
snakesss: if they continue this, it seems to me like b could get 2 sides
user5555: then r14 or something
snakesss: but white will be thick and safe in the middle
snakesss: so from now on, everywhere else, white can go for territory, feeling safe to have destroyed chances of a moyo
user5555: I'd say white has a floating group in the middle that doesn't do much...
user5555: except run
mark5000: Yes, better
]
(;B[qf]C[

-- chat --
pipelord11: black is too ackward to play r14lol
]
)(;B[pe]C[

-- chat --
pipelord11: instead of hane Q15 can it be start from Q14 ?
]
;W[oe]
(;B[qf]C[

-- chat --
pipelord11: This group will generate large sums of influence...
]
;W[pf]
;B[qe]C[

-- chat --
user5555: r13
user5555: no
snakesss: a weak group cutting 2 weak groups is not a weak group
user5555: that's awful
]
;W[qg]
)(;B[qg]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Here?
user5555: or bewtter q14
user5555: maybe
user5555: i think q14
]
)(;B[pf]C[

-- chat --
user5555: yes
mark5000: I agree with Q14 here
user5555: looks better
mark5000: Anyone seen my destroying shape lecture?
user5555: now white has a runner in the middle
snakesss: s14
snakesss: right away?
mark5000: Where does White play immediately?
snakesss: white got 4 liberties in the middle
user5555: well s14 now
mark5000: snakesss watched it
user5555: but still
]
;W[rf]C[

-- chat --
pipelord11: s14
mark5000: Everyone is a shape expert
snakesss: lol
mark5000: It's easy to harass Black
]
))(;B[qg]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: My personal opinion is here.
mark5000: Q14 is similar
snakesss: when you play this, do you think "i dont mind sacrificing r16 stones"?
snakesss: or will they live for sure?
Burak23: they are alive
snakesss: they can be
user5555: they are cutting stones so they are important...
snakesss: but i am asking if it is in some way more profitable to sac them
user5555: not just crapstones
snakesss: oooh
snakesss: right right
snakesss: good point
user5555: thanks :)
mark5000: snakesss: maybe rewatch my pivotal vs. useless stones lecture?
user5555: well... I can only say I still like blank here
mark5000: It's fine.
mark5000: Please try it out in your games.
user5555: but white q14 looks good
mark5000: Yeah
]
))))(;W[of]C[Let me show you the old joseki so you know why the current joseki is the way it is. In the old joseki, White jumps right away.

-- chat --
mark5000: We have other AlphaGo-style AI to help answer our question why AlphaGo might play this way
mark5000: I studied this pattern and found something surprising.
]
(;B[qf]C[Black jumps, too.]
;W[oh]C[White jumps again. This aims at building power for pincering the pincer stone, same as before.

-- chat --
fishku: Can white also play m14? I thought I remember something like this. Maybe just for blitz :p 
mark5000: Yes, that would be acceptable departure from joseki
mark5000: Don't let joseki study take away from your creativity!
fishku: :)
mark5000: Still, it's helpful to know what the fair patterns are, so you can know when you're breaking them
]
;B[qh]C[Black also jumps.]
(;W[id]C[Then White attacks the pincer stone.]
)(;W[qc]
;B[rc]
;W[id]LB[qc:A]LB[rc:B]TR[qd]TR[qf]TR[qh]C[It was popular to trade A/B before pincering, because the exchange helps White a little bit.White a little bit. W

-- chat --
user5555: @geo: exactly... me too. even more reason to know why the joseki wants another move here... 
mark5000: What do you think of this joseki?
mark5000: Compared to the other joseki
Burak23: i would prefer the other one 
user5555: I think it looks very complicated and I don't like that ;-)
snakesss: white got one extra stone for safety when attacking blacks lonely stone
mark5000: It is more complicated, if a little bit.
snakesss: but black got 0 aji on the right
user5555: I don't like white, but also not black...
mark5000: Here's what the professionals thought.
mark5000: Black is low on the right. Black occupies the third line.
]
))(;B[oc]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Attach here.
mark5000: One thing AlphaGo taught professionals is that the corners are more valuable than previously thought.
mark5000: This is part of the reason for early 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 point, for example.
mark5000: So AlphaGo might play here.
user5555: what's wrong mark??
mark5000: In all of history from the invention of Go until 2016, professionals attached at P17 only 4 times.
Nev77: Hi guys
Nev77: Is there audio?
snakesss: no
user5555: that it's good for B or that it's good for W?
mark5000: Text only
Nev77: Ok
mark5000: user5555: Pros didn't attach here because they thought it good for White.
mark5000: We now know that's not the case
user5555: wow. 
user5555: see.... should've listened to the 10kyu from the start!
mark5000: They overlooked this move for centuries.
mark5000: And undervalued the corners.
Annoying orange: Hi
mark5000: I don't mean to disparage professionals. They played according to their best understanding and were correct about a great number of things.
mark5000: Their level exceeds my own.
mark5000: They were just not correct about this one point.
]
;W[nc]
;B[pc]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: And enjoy your corner and pincer.
]
;W[nd]
;B[qf]TR[ld]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: This joseki is normal. I taught it before.
user5555: if the corners really are so valuable, why doesnt alphago play 3-4...?
mark5000: I don't know.
user5555: just a retoricval q really.
mark5000: Fine Art just won the AI competition in China. Fine Art plays dual 3-4.
mark5000: That question is beyond my level.
user5555: interesting. never heard of that bot.
mark5000: And now White jumps out with a one-space jump
mark5000: We'd get the same pattern we started with
mark5000: Who is this good for?
user5555: b
mark5000: It seems B, right?
clackie: yes
mark5000: To me, B is obviously better.
mark5000: White should not play away, Black pincering is good, and White jumped too small.
mark5000: Cue my surprise when I found a joseki resource that said this was good for White.
user5555: no way
clackie: attack
user5555: says the 10kyu!
snakesss: rofl
mark5000: The stated reason was: Black is too close to White's thickness.
snakesss: how could this be good for white?
clackie: k16 it to death!
mark5000: Oh boo. It's wrong. I'm sorry.
user5555: see, told you so! :)
mark5000: Professionals were all misguided on this point.
snakesss: oh then b wouldnt pincer
snakesss: would keep taking the right
]
;AE[of]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: And now Black pincers.
]
;AE[ld]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: You all know this joseki, correct?
mark5000: Say White tenukies here.
]
;W[jd]C[

-- chat --
user5555: yeas!
Burak23: yes
user5555: the only one we know!
mark5000: This is the most basic joseki for the 3-4 point.
mark5000: It was the first 3-4 joseki I learned.
mark5000: And it's still joseki today.
mark5000: Here's the professional thinking:
]
)))(;B[oc]
;W[nc]
;B[pc]
;W[nd]
;B[qf]
;W[of]C[

-- chat --
snakesss: shouldnt we play this then?. From move 0: R16 P16 P17 O17 Q17 O16 R14 P14 
]
))