(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
GN[Becoming 9 Kyu - Lesson 50]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/458474]
PB[Black]
PW[White]
BR[2d]
WR[2d]
OT[Error: time control missing]
RE[?]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]
LB[pa:1]LB[pb:2]LB[pc:3]LB[qc:3]LB[pd:4]LB[qd:3]LB[rd:2]LB[sd:1]C[

-- chat --
MiroslavJD: knights figures?
mark5000: I can tell you.
NoxTheJester: 3-3 = r17
mark5000: In Go, moves are named according to their distance from the edges of the board.
mark5000: So a move at Q16 is on a 4-4 point.
MiroslavJD: Interesting
mark5000: In other words, it's on the fourth line away from each nearby corner.
Light Black: How about opposite side Sensei? 
AdamR: Which corner is irrelevant :) all the corners are the same
mark5000: A move at R16 is on a "3-4" point, being 3 lines and 4 lines away from each corner, respectively.
mark5000: Today's lesson is about the 3-3 point at R17.
mark5000: I hope that makes sense.
]
(;B[qc]C[Hi! Let's investigate distant approaches to the 3-3 point.

-- chat --
MiroslavJD: That's what i need. From move 0: R17 
WeiShou: Hi Martin
mark5000: This lesson is text-based. There's no audio or video.
mark5000: See https://forums.online-go.com/t/becoming-9-kyu-a-series-for-beginners/3809 for past lessons.
christinalane: yay :)
mark5000: Once a stone is played, nearby stones can be called by names depending on their distance from the existing stone.
mark5000: The marked move is referred to as a knight's move, because that's how the knight moves in chess.
mark5000: If it's one point further at square, it's a large knight's move.
Light Black: Oh I see it, it's like L
mark5000: So when I say "large knight's move," you know what relationship exists between the stones. In other words, what distance is between them.
mark5000: This is important in Go because the distance between stones affects how healthy they are--how easily they may be captured.
mark5000: See my last joseki lesson here: https://online-go.com/demo/447930
mark5000: I answer that in depth.
mark5000: This lesson is about more distant approaches, like White's large knight's move.
mark5000: Any other questions about the 3-3 point?
mark5000: See https://online-go.com/demo/447930
mark5000: I explain it all there!
PeterPanGo: I have a silly questions about 3-3 point... maybe not to be answered here... I know that it is said that 3-3 point secures the corner, but often when I try a 3-3 invasion, I don't manage to secure the corner.  So I don't seem to understand the sequence to how to secure the 3-3 corner.
mark5000: Any other questions about 3-3?
jillgoodgal: so you prefer distant approach?
jillgoodgal: as opposed to immediate 4-4
mark5000: Nope. I taught the shoulder hit at Q16 in the first lesson because it's more usual.
mark5000: The distant approach is for when you want to favor one side.
jillgoodgal: oh so giving options, great
NoxTheJester: alright im out, thank you.  congrats on the newborn
mark5000: Thanks for watching!
mark5000: See you all next Saturday.
jillgoodgal: yes thank you very much!
mark5000: Find past lessons at https://forums.online-go.com/t/becoming-9-kyu-a-series-for-beginners/3809
PeterPanGo: awesome! Thank you!
lmadeo76: thank you :)
]
(;W[pf]LB[pd:A]C[This large knight's move is the second most played approach, after the shoulder hit at A. I'd characterize it as flexible.

-- chat --
NoxTheJester: will that be helpful for a 19kyu player? or will it be too advanced for me
mark5000: Your level is perfect.
mark5000: This is a basic lecture for beginning players moving to an intermediate level.
NoxTheJester: cool
]
;B[nd]C[Normally, Black plays this large knight's move in response. Generally, you should play the same shape as your opponent's approach.

-- chat --
jillgoodgal: I pretty much always hit it with 4-4 if I get the chance
jillgoodgal: play under wherever your opponent plays
]
)(;W[pe]C[For example, if White plays a knight's move approach,]
(;B[od]C[This knight's move is good too.]
)(;B[pd]
;W[qe]C[

-- chat --
bcar: How about Q16 as a response to small knight's move by white?
]
))(;W[qe]C[

-- chat --
carloscarazo73: But it is actually played de 3-3 point at the opening?
]
;B[oc]C[In this way, Black can find an appropriate response to White's approach.]
)(;W[qf]
(;B[nc]C[

-- chat --
carloscarazo73: the*
mark5000: Yes, the 3-3 point is played on occasion.
MiroslavJD: Don't worry about the opening in the beggining
mark5000: The 4-4 and 3-4 points are certainly more popular though.
carloscarazo73: Thanks!
]
)(;AE[qf]
;AW[pf]C[So in response to the distant high approach,

-- chat --
christinalane: @carloscarazo73, i believe it is said the 3-3 point is played when playing tight for territoy and it helps secure a corner
]
;B[nd]C[This large knight's move is a good response. This joseki is simple.

-- chat --
MiroslavJD: What does mean 3-3 and 4-4
NoxTheJester: i guess thats something you'll just learn with playing to figure out good timing?
]
;W[qj]C[White can extend along the right side flexibly.

-- chat --
Light Black: Maybe this is dumb question, what Jose ki is? And what is the difference between Joseki and fuseki?
MiroslavJD: seki is life and death
Light Black: <3
]
(;AW[lc]C[Later, this approach is a good move for White.

-- chat --
mark5000: Fuseki means opening. There's no difference.
mark5000: Joseki is an opening pattern in a corner.
Light Black: So it's same thing?
bcar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Go_terms
Light Black: Thank you too much
NoxTheJester: fuseki for opening moves, joseki set of moves anytime in the game that are balanced for black and white
NoxTheJester: the way i understand it
mark5000: Joseki is a sequence of moves played in one corner. Fuseki, or opening, is the first moves that you play over the whole board.
mark5000: That's the difference.
Light Black: I understand now
]
)(;B[kc]C[If Black plays another move to make this area solid,

-- chat --
floyduk: Ooo up there.. I was just watching chat. Thanks Alessandro
]
;W[qd]C[This attachment is a good move.

-- chat --
Light Black: What if black plays Q12?
]
;B[pd]
;W[qe]
;B[rc]LB[qd:A]C[White can get profit, and Black secures the corner in exchange. It isn't a good idea for White to play this immediately, because it strengthens black. So you need to time A carefully.

-- chat --
MiroslavJD: this is nice
Luiskaotsa: Is white settled in this position? Black probably shouldn't monkey jump this early in the game, but the position feels open?
Luiskaotsa: Ok.
jillgoodgal: is it finished today?
Agile Edge: Congratulations on both newborn and newborn sleep.
Luiskaotsa: Newbies: See Mark's past lecture's here: https://forums.online-go.com/t/becoming-9-kyu-a-series-for-beginners/3809
bcar: What do you mean by "profit?"
bcar: Where is the eye space? If black plays at S16, doesn't that poke at the eye?
]
)(;AE[qj]LB[nd:B]LB[pf:A]C[In response to the distant approach at A, the large knight's move at B is the most common answer.

-- chat --
bcar: In generally then, is it a bad idea to compel your opponent to extend from one stone to two stones because it strengthens them?
mark5000: Timing moves is one of the more interesting parts of Go strategy.
floyduk: Am I missing some of whatis being said? I see stones being marked and stuff but no commentary or explanation of why
mark5000: When you're just starting, you won't know when to play this move or that.
mark5000: But I'm telling you that in this case, you don't want to make that exchange right away.
mark5000: You'll go do things in the other corners, and then come back to it if it's still available.
NoxTheJester: got it
mark5000: It's not always important to play it. It secures your right side area, but it also strengthens black.
Light Black: You are so smart Sensei ^^
mark5000: Maybe if you have a fighting position, you don't want black to get stronger.
AlessandroM: floyduk each move has comments on it, lcick back and you can see the explanations
mark5000: In that case, you omit these exchanges and play something more aggressive.
mark5000: Professionals keep their options open until they know how they should develop an area.
]
;AE[nd]
;AB[nc]C[Depending on the situation, other responses are also possible.]
;AE[nc]
;AB[od]C[You should choose your answer depending on the surrounding situation.]
;AE[od]
;AB[oc]
;AE[oc]
;AB[nc]C[Playing on the third line is more territory-oriented.]
;AE[nc]C[

-- chat --
Light Black: Can we play R 14
]
;AB[nd]
;AE[nd]
;AB[od]C[These two knight's moves focus more on influence than territory.

-- chat --
Light Black: R14
mark5000: It's open, yes.
mark5000: Personally, I think that Black is a little better in that joseki. Actually, it's an older joseki, but still useful for kyu players.
]
;AE[od]
;AB[oc]LB[od:A]C[This one-space jump and the knight's move at A create thickness.

-- chat --
mark5000: But if you play more "tightly," it's hard to find where to poke Black.
]
;AE[oc]
;AB[nc]LB[nd:A]C[And this two-space jump and large knight's move at A develop more rapidly.]
;AE[nc]C[

-- chat --
jillgoodgal: S16 would easily be captured in that circumstance
]
;B[nd]C[After that,

-- chat --
Legault: They're not particularly thin though, are they?
]
;W[qj]C[White extends along the right side.

-- chat --
bcar: What do you mean when you say they "develop more rapidly"?
carloscarazo73: Perfect thanks =), and congratulations for the little one!
mark5000: Thank you!
_dori_: yes, its dangerous starting a go game when a baby may wake up when the fighting starts :p
mark5000: And thanks for the link ^^
My Go: thanks for the lsoonss :)
My Go: lessons
mark5000: And also yes, this lesson is concluded. I don't want to overwhelm you, since it's for beginners.
_dori_: Thx :)
bcar: thx
mark5000: The important idea is to show you basic 3-3 point choices that you can make.
Astelia: Thank you.
floyduk: Thank you Mark. I going to dig through some old lectures. Congrats on the little one.
mark5000: If you want to approach from one side, then you have four choices.
NoxTheJester: Thank you very much for the lesson and link to those other lessons
NoxTheJester: quest for 1dan starts today :D
mark5000: And if you get approached, the rule of thumb is to mirror your opponent's approach, unless you have a special plan for your particular board position.
mark5000: Then don't forget to extend at the end! Give your stones a reinforcement, and you'll have an easier time.
mark5000: Any questions about the 3-3 point?
Legault: Can I ask, just for my own clarification. Thickness isn't just how tight your stones are, it's also a lack of points to probe at, right?
mark5000: Right.
Legault: The less aji present, the thicker a position is
jillgoodgal: or closed off
]
(;AW[qd]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: For example, the large knight's move leaves a couple of probing choices.
mark5000: We looked at this one.
]
)(;AW[pd]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: You can also do this one.
]
;B[pc]
;W[od]
;B[oc]
;W[ne]
;B[me]
;W[nf]TR[oe]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: White gets a good shape. There's already a guaranteed eye space.
mark5000: This will help the group survive.
mark5000: The marked point is the eye.
bcar: I was looking at the wrong variation.
bcar: 4-4 point as a response?
]
))))(;W[qq]
;B[oc]
;W[nq]
;B[mc]
;W[kq]
;B[kc]
;W[hq]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Suppose you have two players, black and white.
mark5000: They open like this.
mark5000: Who is developing faster?
bcar: Oh, white.
mark5000: Correct.
mark5000: That's what I mean.
bcar: Because there is more potential territory
carloscarazo73: But blacks move are more territorial doesnt it?
mark5000: Rapid development means creating more potential, but also leaving more weaknesses behind.
floyduk: And thickness means stones closer tgether? Tighter?
mark5000: Yes!
mark5000: I'm glad to introduce these concepts to you! They're important in Go strategy.
mark5000: You must find the best balance between them.
NoxTheJester: but make sure you have healthy shapes
mark5000: Develop too fast and you may lose everything.
My Go: whqt is the difference between thickness and oveer concentraded?
floyduk: Seki
mark5000: Devleop too slowly and you may not have enough points by game end
carloscarazo73: When do you do this lessons?
Kawabata: saturdays
mark5000: I teach on Saturdays. My newborn is keeping me from having a consistent start time, unfortunately. I just got her to sleep and sat down for this impromptu.
mark5000: I'm lucky that she is still sleeping...
]
)(;AW[qp]
;AW[np]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Exactly. Say you have an enclosure facing it.
]
(;W[pd]
;B[pc]
;W[od]
;B[qd]
;W[pf]
;B[qe]
;W[ng]
;B[qg]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Maybe you want to avoid having black undercut you.
]
)(;W[pf]
;B[nd]C[

-- chat --
jillgoodgal: and if black plays elsewhere, you might still get there
]
;W[pj]C[

-- chat --
jillgoodgal: I see
mark5000: Maybe you'd prefer to develop more like this.
mark5000: Make boxes!
]
)))(;B[pd]
;W[qc]
;B[qd]
;W[pc]C[

-- chat --
NoxTheJester: there is a joseki for 3-3 invasion that lets you live
mark5000: This is the basic 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 point.
mark5000: I showed it previously, many lessons ago.
NoxTheJester: was the first joseki i learned
mark5000: Black can kill White, but at the cost of giving White a good shape on the outside.
mark5000: Because of that, White can usually expect the corner territory.
]
;B[od]C[

-- chat --
jillgoodgal: if black keeps pressing down on white, it is a good idea for white to play S16 then S17 for more eye space
]
;W[nb]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: This is the basic joseki nowadays for the 3-3 point invasion.
mark5000: White gets territory. Black gets outward-facing influence, plus the next free move.
mark5000: If needed, yeah. But remember what I said about exchanges eariler.
mark5000: It also strengthens Black.
mark5000: So you should hold off making that exchange until you have to.
jillgoodgal: I meant that more for the person having trouble surviving in the corner invasion
mark5000: Then yes, you'd be correct!
jillgoodgal: that is probably one reason his stones die
mark5000: Maybe! But this shape should be resilient. If White keeps answering Black, then White should be just fine.
jillgoodgal: plus it should end in sente for white anyway, though at the cost of strengthening black
mark5000: You're getting it! Maybe you'll be 9 kyu soon??
mark5000: ;)
]
;B[pj]C[

-- chat --
mark5000: Black can continue with a nice boxy shape if it makes sense in the game.
]
))