(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2015-07-09]
GN[]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/69670]
BR[8d]
WR[8d]
TM[0]OT[0 none]
RE[?]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]
MA[oc]MA[pc]MA[qc]MA[od]MA[pd]MA[qd]MA[pe]MA[qe]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: hmm looks like i might have to type :(
rthspaz07: audio might not be working
testerq: rthspaz07 [5k\]: curently audio presenters count is 0
testerq: try giving yourself voice, click on mic icon, and alow mic sharing when asked by webRTC?
rthspaz07: ah i am not every asked by webrtc
testerq: browser?
rthspaz07: chrome
testerq: ah, let me check
testerq: by default it should ask you
rthspaz07: it doesnt though
testerq: I hear you, give me a sec to check were settings might be
rthspaz07: i have media settings to always allow this side to use my mic
testerq: btw, did you heare me when you geave me cvoice?
rthspaz07: i did not let me give again
rthspaz07: try now
testerq: hm, does not seem to work...
testerq: will try also from chromium
testerq: um, could you pls give me voice again, it did not persist when I swaped browsers
rthspaz07: now try
testerq: did it work?
rthspaz07: nope
rthspaz07: we will just have to use typing
testerq: yeah, I would call it a bug
testerq: as audio presenters as reported by them is always 0
RevarIsavé: Several people have experienced problems with the audio lately
rthspaz07: ok 
rthspaz07: well anyways I will just have to type
rthspaz07: ok this review will be mainly for ddk
rthspaz07: but to let everyone know that the fuseki or opening is the theoretically hardest part of the game
rthspaz07: and usually the outcome of games for ddk will not be fuseki but fighting and reading ability
rthspaz07: I am not the best player and so some of these moves might not be best but the concepts behind them will improve you :P
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: but how the beginner of the game starts out could make a game easy or hard for you
rthspaz07: as everyone knows the game starts out in the corners because it is the easiest way to surround territory
rthspaz07: lecture really than review
rthspaz07: audio not working sorry :(
rthspaz07: ok when we play in the corner where we play will determine followup and direction of play
rthspaz07: so we will start by understanding what each move in the corners is saying 
Yusaii: ^^___________^^
RevarIsavé: What's a good combination with the 3-3?
rthspaz07: ok not much to the 3-5 
rthspaz07: but a very similar move is the 4-5
rthspaz07: extending to the sides
rthspaz07: 2 things to consider
rthspaz07: 3rd line or 4th line
RevarIsavé: True
rthspaz07: this is Shin Jinseo 3p vs Yu Zhiying 5p
RevarIsavé: I feel like the timing is very important too
RevarIsavé: Like in the last game you showed us
rthspaz07: the pincer?
RevarIsavé: Then p14 oder r17 is a question of preference again
]
(;B[qd]LB[kc:D]LB[nc:C]LB[oc:A]LB[od:B]SQ[pj]SQ[qj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: first we will start with the 3-4 point
rthspaz07: what does this say
rthspaz07: it is a good balance in territory and influence however it invites another move by either player
rthspaz07: and the initial direct of play is along A, B, C and sometimes C
rthspaz07: D i mean as in the "chinese" fuseki
rthspaz07: and usually the 2nd move here is just as valuable as the first
rthspaz07: ok so if black is to enclose the corner lets say at B
rthspaz07: then the right side starts to become big for both players
rthspaz07: around the marked stones
rthspaz07: this allows black to gain larger scale territory called moyo and has good potentia
rthspaz07: l
rthspaz07: and is powerful
rthspaz07: so usually white tries to approach before black can enclose
rthspaz07: lets look at some approaches
rthspaz07: ok so with the 3-4 we understand that enclose is important 
rthspaz07: did i answer that good enough?
rthspaz07: key thinks here is first direction this move is the top to enclose or approach
saxmaam: ok
rthspaz07: then if you enclose you can develop it allow the right by playing away from it like r10 and q10
rthspaz07: along not allow*
rthspaz07: yea saxmaam
rthspaz07: please if you have questions ask
saxmaam: no questions, sorry
rthspaz07: ah i se
rthspaz07: see
RevarIsavé: I got one but I think it's better for later. I want to see what else you got prepared first
rthspaz07: ok now that we understand basics of this corner lets move to another
rthspaz07: k
bethestone: hi
bluebegginer: are we all doing this fuseki review?
bluebegginer: oh wait, the last comment as last month
bluebegginer: nevermind
bluebegginer: hello  
margauxelisha28: hello
fcabc: 1a. From move 1: 
]
(;W[od]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here is a very common approach
Enumaris: What, no love for the two space high enclosure?
rthspaz07: well not used as often do to the weaknesses left over on the upper side
rthspaz07: and in corner
Enumaris: I guess Go Seigen is the only one who plays that lol
rthspaz07: even if you enclose doesnt mean there is no weaknesses
rthspaz07: so this is a basic joseki
]
;B[oc]
;W[nc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: After move 5 of this
]
;B[pc]LB[md:A]LB[nd:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here?
RevarIsavé: Yes
RevarIsavé: So
RevarIsavé: Usually white would need to play o16, n16 or something of the likes
RevarIsavé: I got told that, depending on the situation on the board, this can wait 
rthspaz07: it can
rthspaz07: because the cut by black is not as big in situations as other moves
RevarIsavé: And that's what I'm wondering about. When? 
rthspaz07: that honestly can be base on preference
rthspaz07: for example
rthspaz07: why A over B/
rthspaz07: ?
HowToPlay?: sets up for the hane at o18 from blacK? 
rthspaz07: there, as far as my understanding, not "best move" in fuseki and thus so many variations in openings
testerq: a is for influance and more distance, b is stronger
rthspaz07: exactly
rthspaz07: but which is better
sukonbu: 2. From move 5: 
sukonbu: that was a miss click 
]
(;W[md]
;B[qf]
;W[ic]LB[lc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: just an example we will not spend much time on joseki
testerq: depends on the sorroundings and what you want to play
testerq: ?
rthspaz07: this shape has weakness that can be exploided
]
)(;W[nd]
;B[qf]
;W[jc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: also this
RevarIsavé: And I got a question right here
rthspaz07: this is more solid but not as fast developing
testerq: so it is question of preference and current board situation?
rthspaz07: so when you tenuki from joseki i think it is preference and you should understand why you tenuki and the result
rthspaz07: yea
rthspaz07: but josekis is not the focus
rthspaz07: i think later you might have a little bit more understanding :P
]
))(;W[nc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok here is another example of an approach
rthspaz07: so whats the difference here from p16
rthspaz07: from the high 1 space to the 2 space low?
Enumaris: Harder to pincer :D
rthspaz07: exactly
testerq: sry, looking at it with one eye, coding with the other - will stay quiet :)
rthspaz07: but usually in results in loses for white locally and needs follow up by other stones 
rthspaz07: but this is 1 way to prevent a pince and a joseki could look like this
]
;B[pe]
(;W[jc]
;B[qj]
)(;W[kc]
)(;W[jd]LB[kc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this or A
]
))(;W[dd]
;B[oc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: black here chooses to enclose his corner immediately
]
;W[qq]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: white chooses 3-3
]
;B[dq]LB[qj:A]LB[do:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: and black another 3-4
rthspaz07: as we should know by now this is not a parrellel fuseki
rthspaz07: as each color is in opposite corners which leads to a more fighting game
rthspaz07: so where do you think white moved?
rthspaz07: whats the big points here?
saxmaam: c5
saxmaam: and middle of each side
rthspaz07: c5 
rthspaz07: good anyone else?
BulletD0dger: i think the biggest moves would be to prevent black getting an extension from the corner enclosure or approaching the D3
saxmaam: like
BulletD0dger: but if you play R10, black can play C5
BulletD0dger: so i guess D5 would be the most important?
rthspaz07: that is good you are right
rthspaz07: so lets see where this pro decided to play
]
;W[co]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here to prevent a 2nd enclosure
rthspaz07: black chooses to pincer
]
;B[dl]C[

-- chat --
suhird403: k this is a review but how come I can see this
rthspaz07: ok joseki now
]
;W[dn]
;B[fp]
;W[bq]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: that is joseki
rthspaz07: well wait
]
;B[jq]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok now joseki lol
rthspaz07: ok now that joseki is at topping point
rthspaz07: where is the big point now?
BulletD0dger: R10
BulletD0dger: right side is biggest
rthspaz07: yea the right side
rthspaz07: good
rthspaz07: and lets see where white chose to play
]
;W[qi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: good bullet
BulletD0dger: thanks :)
rthspaz07: now the next move is harder to understand but so ill show
]
;B[np]
;W[pp]LB[pn:A]LB[lq:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: that is the 14 moves
rthspaz07: white chose q4 because he can q6 to help out r11 or invade at B
rthspaz07: but this just any example of big moves
rthspaz07: ok now we will go over another good concept
]
)(;W[pp]
(;B[oc]
(;W[dp]
;B[qj]LB[od:A]LB[qn:B]
)(;W[qj]
;B[qh]LB[qf:A]LB[qn:B]
))(;B[cd]
;W[dp]
)(;B[dd]
;W[dp]
;B[kc]LB[kc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: why A and not p17?
rthspaz07: this is a strategy 
rthspaz07: white would like black not to enclose the corner right?
]
;W[od]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: so what happens if white goes here
rthspaz07: well lets look at the simple joseki i showed earlier
]
;B[oc]
;W[nc]
;B[pc]
;W[nd]
;B[qf]LB[jc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: oh man
rthspaz07: now white cant extend to A
rthspaz07: because black is there already
rthspaz07: so certain moves are about preference
rthspaz07: you dont have to enclose the corner 
rthspaz07: but it is a big move
rthspaz07: and you can develop from it
]
)(;B[dc]
;W[cp]
;B[cf]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok so black encloses
]
;W[nc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: white prevents 2nd enclosure
]
;B[pc]
;W[jd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: joseki here
]
;B[qn]
;W[nq]
;B[ld]
;W[lc]
;B[md]
;W[mc]
;B[nd]
;W[kd]LB[md:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok so what did black just do?
rthspaz07: why gain wall by invading high
rthspaz07: with A
RevarIsavé: That wall supports in case of white invasion on the right
rthspaz07: yea 
]
;B[hc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this threatens white and extends
]
;W[jb]SQ[pc]SQ[ld]SQ[md]SQ[nd]SQ[qd]LB[qn:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: now where is biggest point or area/
rthspaz07: ?
neonjones: E4?
rthspaz07: e4 area is big no doubt
rthspaz07: but i think something bigger
rthspaz07: oh by the way this game is Guo Yuzheng 4p vs Qiu Jun 9p
RevarIsavé: q10?
rthspaz07: played on june 17th
neonjones: E10?
rthspaz07: yea q10 area much bigger
rthspaz07: why?
RevarIsavé: \\o/
RevarIsavé: My words are failing me
rthspaz07: why build influence if not going to use and and extends from A
]
;B[pk]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok now white invades
RevarIsavé: Also if white does something with c4 now black has responses on either side
rthspaz07: but dont worry about the invasion and the moves after just see what happens after it is settled
rthspaz07: yep
]
;W[qi]
;B[qg]
;W[pg]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this is not so important as what happens after it is settled
RevarIsavé: okay
rthspaz07: the reading here is pro level
rthspaz07: i cant explain the moves :(
]
;B[qf]
;W[oi]
;B[nj]
;W[rk]
;B[on]
;W[ql]
;B[pl]
;W[qh]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok after here i think white lives
RevarIsavé: Ok ok that was too quick
rthspaz07: what i can tell is this
rthspaz07: white has great shape and looks to be alive
rthspaz07: as is black
rthspaz07: so black took sente here
rthspaz07: and where does he play?
]
;B[ep]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here
]
;W[eq]C[

-- chat --
neonjones: I was too early on that move
rthspaz07: ok dont be concerned with joseki here just look at what each gets and response after
]
;B[dp]
;W[dq]
;B[co]
;W[fq]
;B[bp]
;W[cq]
;B[dn]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok black gets wall
rthspaz07: and white territory
rthspaz07: so white sees influence and does what?
rthspaz07: what area is big now?
RevarIsavé: I'd be tempted to invade the left
rthspaz07: after this joseki
rthspaz07: yea left
neonjones: E9?
rthspaz07: perfect
]
;W[cj]LB[cf:B]LB[co:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here is the move played
rthspaz07: ok is black threatened?
rthspaz07: on top or bottom/
rthspaz07: ?
rthspaz07: with this move?
RevarIsavé: The bottom
RevarIsavé: Or was that as "at all" question
rthspaz07: actually not as much as you think
RevarIsavé: hm
rthspaz07: here black can choose to respond or play another big move
rthspaz07: white has not threaten the live of either the top or bottom
RevarIsavé: Which would be bottom side, yea?
rthspaz07: the shape black has is solid
rthspaz07: so black decides to take sente
rthspaz07: and ignore c10 for now
]
;B[qq]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: remember that white never came back to fix here
rthspaz07: so black takes sente to take advantage
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: that is it for this game
rthspaz07: i have one more then be open for questions
RevarIsavé: Ay
]
))(;W[qq]
;B[oc]
;W[op]
;B[qk]
;W[qi]
;B[qg]
;W[qm]
(;B[pj]
;W[pi]
;B[oi]
;W[pg]
;B[qf]
;W[oh]
;B[ni]
;W[mg]
;B[om]LB[qf:6]LB[mg:9]LB[pg:5]LB[oh:7]LB[ni:8]LB[oi:4]LB[pi:3]TR[qi]LB[pj:2]LB[om:10]LB[qm:1]
)(;B[ok]
;W[oi]
;B[mk]
;W[mi]LB[ph:D]LB[mi:5]LB[oi:3]LB[pi:C]LB[ri:E]LB[pj:B]LB[mk:4]LB[ok:2]LB[rk:A]LB[qm:1]
))(;W[oc]
)(;AB[oc]LB[nc:B]LB[od:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this safely encloses about 10 points 
rthspaz07: now what is difference between this enclosure and A
rthspaz07: anyone?
bencoder: A leaves a poke?
rthspaz07: ok 
rthspaz07: lets say we have enclosed out corner in a game
]
(;AE[oc]
(;AB[od]LB[mc:B]LB[pc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this?
bencoder: yeah
rthspaz07: what else
Wulfenia: better influence on the right side
rthspaz07: why on 4th line
rthspaz07: exactly
rthspaz07: the high enclose give more influence towards the right side but giving more weakness to slide under on top
rthspaz07: with B
rthspaz07: and yea you can probe at A 
]
)(;AB[nc]LB[oc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: what is difference between this and A
rthspaz07: safety
rthspaz07: the farther a stone is away the easier it is for your opponent to invade
]
))(;W[dd]
(;B[dp]
)(;B[pp]
;W[dp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: what is a good way to develop this corner?
rthspaz07: so we play on top 
rthspaz07: close or far?
rthspaz07: on the right or bottom
rthspaz07: how do we go about developing
rthspaz07: the top right
bencoder: right
rthspaz07: where?
rthspaz07: give examples
Злой русский: I think in the top k16 is ok because of simary
Злой русский: but in the bottom o4 is possible
Злой русский: i confuse colours
Злой русский: =/
rthspaz07: ah black to play :P
rthspaz07: we are developing encloser
]
(;B[jd]C[

-- chat --
Злой русский: oh
]
)(;B[qj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: how does this look?
Злой русский: oh as for black f4
Злой русский: looks that black worries much about territory)
rthspaz07: does f4 help group the top right corner?
Злой русский: wait
rthspaz07: we are right now just looking at developing the top right corner
Злой русский: ah ok
rthspaz07: to build up moyo
rthspaz07: the top right is a strong base and because of that we would like not to play too close
Злой русский: can we play  on the 4th line?
rthspaz07: r 10 is good 
Pander: L16 too slow?
rthspaz07: keep in mind that alot of positions can be invadable
rthspaz07: including this
rthspaz07: but any invasion black will hold a big advantage
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: i think we should understand now what the 3-4 corner means when we play
rthspaz07: usually needs follow up by either player
RevarIsavé: So..
RevarIsavé: If we play 3-4 and then elsewhere during to opening we should/have to get back there because we "owe" a move, right?
rthspaz07: and after enclosure we develop by extending away from it 
rthspaz07: we dont owe it but it is a good move
rthspaz07: remember it is about preference at this point
rthspaz07: for example
]
;AB[oj]LB[oj:2]LB[qj:1]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: think of moyo like building house
rthspaz07: you much start with a base
rthspaz07: which in this case is the top right corner
rthspaz07: then you must build the walls
rthspaz07: 1 and 2 is that 
rthspaz07: as the game goes on the ceiling will be put into place 
]
)(;B[kd]SQ[mc]SQ[nc]SQ[oc]SQ[pc]SQ[qd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: l16 extends but in wrong direction
rthspaz07: think of the top right like a wall
rthspaz07: do you extend from this wall on top or the right?
Pander: Ah. P10 or P11 maybe?
saxmaam: right
]
)))(;W[pp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok so we know that right is big
]
(;B[qj]LB[od:A]LB[qn:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this is a big move
rthspaz07: and if black was on A there would be more influence in right 
rthspaz07: and later if black gets the chance he can B
]
)(;AW[qj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: what if white gets here first?
rthspaz07: what does black do?
rthspaz07: or can do?
RevarIsavé: r12?
saxmaam: r12
rthspaz07: and if black ignores white has room to extend again toward corner
]
(;B[qh]LB[qf:A]LB[qn:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: and it iwll be hard for white to A
rthspaz07: since black is so strong in the corner
rthspaz07: and black can still invade at B and do as much if not more damage
]
)(;AW[qg]
))(;AW[pj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: so what happens if white plays on 4th line?
saxmaam: still nice for white
rthspaz07: yep it is 
saxmaam: still r12?
rthspaz07: black can still r 12
rthspaz07: ok but what about 5th line
]
)(;AW[oj]LB[qj:A]LB[qn:B]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam:  r11 starts to look interesting, but scary
rthspaz07: black can just respond at A 
RevarIsavé: 3rd line - territory;
rthspaz07: and can even B since white is too far way from board to prevent B
RevarIsavé: 4th line - influence
RevarIsavé: 5th line - madness
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: lol
]
;AE[oj]
;AE[pp]
;AW[pq]
)))(;W[pq]
;B[oc]
;W[qj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok lets look at good example of spacing of moves
]
;B[po]
;W[qp]
;B[qo]
;W[nq]
;B[ql]LB[qf:A]LB[qg:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok now
rthspaz07: white is under attack
rthspaz07: A or B
saxmaam: B makes a base
rthspaz07: yep
]
(;W[qg]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: A would scream for fighting
rthspaz07: simple
]
)(;W[qf]
;B[qh]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: dont think this would be much fighting
rthspaz07: more slaughter
rthspaz07: lol
RevarIsavé: We're all no dans ;P
]
;W[oj]
;B[oh]
;W[of]
;B[mh]
;W[ol]
;B[me]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: hard to run with both whites
]
))(;AB[qg]
;AB[qq]
;AB[pp]
;AB[qp]
;AB[ro]
;AB[rn]
;AB[oq]
;AB[nq]
;AB[ec]
;AB[cd]
;AW[oc]
;AW[kc]
;AW[cq]
;AW[mq]
;AW[mp]
;AW[np]
;AW[op]
;AW[po]
;AW[qo]
;AW[qn]
;AW[qm]
;AB[eq]
;W[do]LB[do:2]LB[hp:A]LB[eq:1]LB[gq:D]LB[hq:C]LB[iq:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: after black 1 white 2
rthspaz07: now how does black extend along botto
rthspaz07: bottom
saxmaam: is this another kick anticipation?
rthspaz07: nope
rthspaz07: just pick one :P
saxmaam: then I would guess C
rthspaz07: A-D
saxmaam: Or c2
rthspaz07: nope just A-D
rthspaz07: one of those are answer
saxmaam: C
]
(;B[hq]LB[ch:D]LB[ci:B]LB[cj:A]LB[ck:C]LB[cl:E]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: yea great
rthspaz07: ok now it is whites turn
rthspaz07: we are going to approach the enclosure on the left
rthspaz07: where do we approah
saxmaam: c10?
rthspaz07: c 10 
rthspaz07: what else
saxmaam: D14
rthspaz07: anyone have a different opinion
rthspaz07: anyone else?
rthspaz07: any of these?
rthspaz07: anyone this these are good or bad?
]
(;W[cj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this is good but i think white can afford to go 1 more
]
;B[ch]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here is still good
rthspaz07: so good job there
]
)(;W[ci]LB[cf:A]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: why?
rthspaz07: because white has enough room to A
rthspaz07: if pincered
RevarIsavé: Going in is possible but difficult because of the corner stones
rthspaz07: this is much better
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: ok now ill show some pro games from last month and we will go through fuseki
]
;B[ck]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: ok
]
;W[cf]
)(;W[ch]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here black can pincer effectively
]
;B[cj]
;W[cf]
)(;W[ck]
;B[ci]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: the farther away we go the more black can get
]
)(;W[cl]
;B[cj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: ok 
RevarIsavé: I don't like this for white
rthspaz07: yep me neigher
]
))(;B[hp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: if black here then white can extend on bottom and attack
]
;W[jq]LB[fo:A]LB[gq:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: aiming at B and or A
]
)(;B[iq]
;W[gq]C[can just invade

-- chat --
rthspaz07: can just invade
]
)(;B[gq]
;W[iq]C[white had great extension from 2 stone wall and black crowded not eye space

-- chat --
rthspaz07: no eye spacce and good extension by white
]
))(;W[dc]
;B[pq]
;W[dp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: played jun 17th
]
;B[nc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: enlosure again
]
;W[po]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: prevent 2nd
rthspaz07: again
]
;B[qo]
;W[qn]
;B[qp]
;W[pm]
;B[mq]
;W[qi]
;B[qg]
;W[oi]
;B[cn]
;W[cl]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok next move might be confusing
rthspaz07: but ill explain 
]
;B[cf]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: so why play c6 if you are going to tenuki
rthspaz07: well treat c6 like a probe
rthspaz07: black played to ask white what is your plan
rthspaz07: once he saw c8 then he knew and decided to go approach top left
]
;W[di]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok this is extension from c8 and pincer on c14 
rthspaz07: good move
rthspaz07: after theh top joseki
rthspaz07: black comes back to bottom left
rthspaz07: top joseki very complicated
rthspaz07: just remember outcome then what they play
]
;B[cc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this is common to pincer attack btw
]
;W[cd]
;B[dd]
;W[bc]
;B[cb]
;W[de]
;B[ed]
;W[ce]
(;B[ee]
)(;B[bb]
;W[gd]
;B[ee]
;W[df]
;B[ef]
;W[eg]
;B[fg]
;W[eh]
;B[gf]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok wall vs territory again
rthspaz07: so white chooses to address blacks influence
]
;W[jd]C[

-- chat --
LesTrois: Hey
rthspaz07: and black takes sente to address bottom left
rthspaz07: yea
]
;B[cq]
;W[cp]
;B[dq]
;W[ep]
;B[bp]
;W[bo]
;B[bq]
;W[co]
;B[fq]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: I was thinking about that, yush \\o/
]
;W[go]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok a few more moves then ill stop with this game
]
;B[lc]C[

-- chat --
LesTrois: Is this a pro game?
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: played last month
LesTrois: awesome
rthspaz07: black here attacks white
]
;W[qc]
;B[pc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: r17 
rthspaz07: is a probe
rthspaz07: there is aji
rthspaz07: usually used for ko fights if need or last resort kinda
rthspaz07: if losing
rthspaz07: but right here is huge move
]
;W[gi]TR[ch]TR[bi]TR[gj]TR[bk]TR[gl]TR[cm]TR[gn]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: BAM
rthspaz07: look at whites left
rthspaz07: and lets say we switch the what stone with black
rthspaz07: white has huge moyo
rthspaz07: but still aji all over though
RevarIsavé: https://twitter.com/OnlineGoServer/status/619134604708966400
rthspaz07: ok now i hope that everyone here understands why each corner is saying 
rthspaz07: and how to approach and enclose them
rthspaz07: 1 more thing to learn is pincers
rthspaz07: ill go over quickly
]
;AB[gi]
;AE[gi]
;AB[gi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: hugge
rthspaz07: move
RevarIsavé: https://twitter.com/OnlineGoServer/status/598192085137653760
rthspaz07: white did win this game btw but not so important
rthspaz07: ah what is this?
RevarIsavé: A response to white g11 ;)
rthspaz07: lol
]
)))(;B[pd]LB[jc:E]LB[nc:A]LB[oc:B]LB[qc:C]LB[rd:D]LB[pf:2]LB[qf:1]LB[pg:3]LB[qg:4]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: what about this move?
saxmaam: have to be flexible
RevarIsavé: Going for more territory in the corner but easy to invade
RevarIsavé: or attack at least
rthspaz07: yep and yep
rthspaz07: flexible 
rthspaz07: so is a follow up move urgent/
rthspaz07: ?
besanit: depends?
rthspaz07: on?
saxmaam: not until W gets near?
besanit: your plan and the rest of the board
rthspaz07: ok normally this move is flexible
rthspaz07: neither white or black knows which side to approach
rthspaz07: so this corner develops from distance like the 3-3 point
rthspaz07: when we play this always remember that white can C
rthspaz07: the 3-3 invasion
RevarIsavé: Then back to my question
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: Please go to the variation with black k16 and white r17
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: now lets look at some examples of when white approaches and how it affects the corner
rthspaz07: some other approaches are 2,3 and 4
rthspaz07: how about enclosures?
rthspaz07: ok i think we understand now what the 4-4 means for fuseki
rthspaz07: so we hit the 3-4, 3-3, and now the 4-4
rthspaz07: lets look at anothehr
rthspaz07: another*
RevarIsavé: wha... oder = or
]
(;W[qc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok white took the corner now what do you do?
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: For example
RevarIsavé: Let's say black has something on on the upper side
]
(;B[qd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: block right
RevarIsavé: Ay
saxmaam: eah
rthspaz07: as of right now dont worry about which side to block from
rthspaz07: this is basic joseki
]
;W[pc]
;B[oc]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: That's where my questions begin
]
;W[ob]
;B[nc]
;W[nb]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: Black can o18
]
;B[mc]
;W[rd]
;B[re]
;W[rc]
;B[qf]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: yes but depends on what black once
RevarIsavé: Yeah :)
rthspaz07: for this example this is good enough and much more common
]
)(;AB[jd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this?
RevarIsavé: Like that
RevarIsavé: Then white plays the 3-3
rthspaz07: ok great questions
rthspaz07: which to block?
RevarIsavé: My current thinking would be..
RevarIsavé: Wait
saxmaam: A
besanit: r17
rthspaz07: sorry go ahead
rthspaz07: revarlsave go ahead?
RevarIsavé: I say
RevarIsavé: You go ahead and in the meantime I figure out a way to say what I want to say
RevarIsavé: ^^
rthspaz07: k
rthspaz07: ill show both ways and you guys let me know which looks better
rthspaz07: yea
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: yes
besanit: atari
besanit: and then atari
besanit: if you want this you  block the other way
]
(;B[qd]
;W[pc]
;B[oc]
;W[ob]
(;B[nc]
;W[nb]
;B[mc]
;W[rd]
;B[re]
;W[rc]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: I like 2 better
]
;B[qf]LB[jd:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: or 2
saxmaam: 2
rthspaz07: you like this one?
saxmaam: yes
RevarIsavé: Oh
RevarIsavé: No the other
besanit: no
rthspaz07: everyone else give there response
besanit: i think is clearer if you hava a w stone in q10
rthspaz07: extension in wrong direction
]
;AW[pj]
;AE[pj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: yea 1 is better
]
)(;B[nb]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: So
RevarIsavé: Black could block, we saw that 
RevarIsavé: Could this be an option too?. From move 0: Q16 R17 K16 R16 Q17 P17 P18 O18 
RevarIsavé: I'm thinking
rthspaz07: ok what is the result here?
rthspaz07: what does white normally do?
rthspaz07: by the way this happens frequently not just in this corner but anyway on board
rthspaz07: the double hane
saxmaam: b gets corner while W gets ponnuki
rthspaz07: yep
]
;W[nc]
;B[od]
;W[mb]
;B[pb]
;W[na]
;B[qb]C[white gets good shape, runs and can should live
and black gets some points in corner

-- chat --
rthspaz07: white get ponuki
RevarIsavé: Now here's what I'm wondering..
rthspaz07: this shape is ponuki btw
RevarIsavé: Because of k16 white can't extend much
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: Maybe even a chance to kill?
RevarIsavé: hm... probably not
RevarIsavé: Mhm
rthspaz07: so you much think is this better for me than
RevarIsavé: Depends on which side, no?
RevarIsavé: I mean, on which side white is nearby
rthspaz07: well for this variition lets say this is only way to block
RevarIsavé: Okay
rthspaz07: here white doesnt get much but can run and should live
rthspaz07: and black gets some points in corner
besanit: but this option makes no sense with the first block
besanit: yes in that way
]
(;W[me]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: running fight but i say it would be hard to kill
]
)(;W[kc]
;B[jc]
(;W[me]
)(;W[kb]LB[nb:1]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: but this isn't nearly as good for B in most cases, right?
rthspaz07: 2 eyes right
rthspaz07: this is depending on board
]
))))(;B[pc]
;W[qd]
;B[qe]
;W[re]
(;B[qf]
;W[rf]
;B[qg]
;W[pb]
;B[ob]
;W[qb]
;B[nc]LB[jd:A]C[white gets corner and black gets potential with large framework

-- chat --
rthspaz07: which is better
rthspaz07: this one 
rthspaz07: or 2?
rthspaz07: 1
rthspaz07: 1 here
RevarIsavé: This
RevarIsavé: 1
besanit: 1
rthspaz07: or 2
rthspaz07: A becomes an extension from a wall
rthspaz07: this
RevarIsavé: Nay
RevarIsavé: Looking at the other situation I'd probably go with the block
rthspaz07: so early in games this is better
RevarIsavé: To this
rthspaz07: but latter on if white is nearby that can easily invade this and reduce you to nothing then other joseki is better right?
rthspaz07: other white gets the points but you get potential by large framework
besanit: you keep your potential
rthspaz07: kinda
rthspaz07: since white is not surrounded not quite the same
besanit: yes
rthspaz07: revarlsave
rthspaz07: does that help?
RevarIsavé: Yes
RevarIsavé: Thank you
rthspaz07: usually you have to evaluate the board position then determine which is best then continuue
besanit: until when can you do a 3-3 invasion
rthspaz07: and in alot of cases in fuseki it is preference
]
;AW[pj]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: I'll change to 1, since W can do something irritating lik r11 in 2
]
;AE[pj]
)(;B[rf]
;W[qf]
;B[pe]
;W[rg]
;B[rd]
;W[sf]
;B[rc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this
]
))))(;AB[jc]
;AB[qj]LB[jd:B]LB[pj:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: can be at A or B as well
]
)(;W[qf]LB[ph:A]LB[qh:B]LB[pi:D]LB[qi:C]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok why do we make this move?
saxmaam: two possibilities
rthspaz07: whats the primary thought here
saxmaam: either push into corner or take some side?
RevarIsavé: We put pressure on the corner, stop black from enclosing in that direction and depending on the response white might get to the corner
BulletD0dger: it's flexible and depending on white's response you have options, but initially you are emphasizing the side
BulletD0dger: if black pincers and decides he wants the side you can still invade the corner
rthspaz07: right 
rthspaz07: we aim at taking corner 
rthspaz07: or threaten it at least
RevarIsavé: I like joseki with thr 4-4
RevarIsavé: Until my opponent is better than me and responds with something that is not a common exchange
RevarIsavé: And then I fail in answering :D
rthspaz07: normally simple response is to mimic the move on other side since not being surround is good idea
RevarIsavé: The probe in the bottom left coner
RevarIsavé: *corner
rthspaz07: ah yea
rthspaz07: ok here
]
(;B[nc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: then threaten corner again
]
;W[rd]
;B[qc]
;W[qi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: notice with this joseki that white seems bigger than black 
rthspaz07: why?
rthspaz07: how is this even?
saxmaam: B has sente
rthspaz07: yea 
rthspaz07: exactly
]
)(;B[qh]LB[qc:A]LB[of:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: common pincer is this
rthspaz07: im sure you guys have seen this right/
rthspaz07: ?
rthspaz07: 2 responses which are up to you and you have to be able to accept either
rthspaz07: A or B usually
RevarIsavé: Ya
RevarIsavé: Though
rthspaz07: A takes corner and B influence
RevarIsavé: Yeah
rthspaz07: here
RevarIsavé: All was saying was: Playing A or B here is a question of preference
RevarIsavé: That was all
rthspaz07: yea
rthspaz07: and you dont have to respond
rthspaz07: hard for white to get nothing even after play again
]
(;W[qc]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: From the people I watched play+comment most tended to dislike A
RevarIsavé: Wait. I mean B
LesTrois: Ya but B gives black a lot of territory
rthspaz07: yea gives black huge influence
LesTrois: because black can run with white
rthspaz07: black doesnt get as much u think
LesTrois: oh 
rthspaz07: here is josekis
rthspaz07: other response black can do is this
]
(;B[qd]
;W[pc]
(;B[od]LB[oc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: make sure not to A as black
rthspaz07: bad result if so
rthspaz07: so here
]
;W[rd]
;B[re]
;W[rc]
;B[qe]
;W[nc]LB[rf:A]
;B[me]LB[mc:B]LB[rf:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: after this white has aji at A
rthspaz07: and be careful with black b
rthspaz07: usually later white chooses to B
rthspaz07: if not
]
(;W[mc]
)(;W[pp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: yea
]
;B[mc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: must o18
]
(;W[nb]
)(;W[nd]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: That hurts
]
;B[ne]
;W[md]
;B[oc]
;W[ob]
;B[nb]
;W[ld]
;B[pb]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: bad result for white
]
)))(;B[oc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: what about here
rthspaz07: who knows?
rthspaz07: what is whites move to punish?
RevarIsavé: s16
rthspaz07: hint it will feel strange
rthspaz07: nah not s16
RevarIsavé: Then no idea
rthspaz07: anyone?
RevarIsavé: So far I only went over the most common joseki
rthspaz07: ok
]
;W[rc]LB[rd:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this is answer
rthspaz07: threatens to connect
]
(;B[od]
;W[rd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: or
]
)(;B[rd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here more common
rthspaz07: then the brutal cut
]
;W[od]LB[oc:A]LB[qd:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: white now will kill something
rthspaz07: A or B
RevarIsavé: Oooh, I like that
]
;B[oe]
;W[nd]
(;B[pf]
;W[nc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: big
]
)(;B[nc]
;W[pe]LB[qd:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: dead
]
))))(;B[pc]
;W[qd]
;B[pe]
;W[rf]
;B[og]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: influence
]
))(;W[of]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok next is here
RevarIsavé: Wait nvm
RevarIsavé: I meant the black stone that was there
RevarIsavé: wrong coordinate, sorry
rthspaz07: :P
RevarIsavé: shhh
rthspaz07: but this is common
rthspaz07: but the lest common and hard to understand at the pincers with 3-4 joseki
]
(;B[nc]LB[qh:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: since white was being attack he extends to get strong and then attacks black weak stonne
rthspaz07: here
RevarIsavé: No, 2 moves back
rthspaz07: well you can o16
]
;W[pi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here
RevarIsavé: the german in me got out for a second, sorry
]
;B[qi]
;W[pj]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: Just
RevarIsavé: Go to
RevarIsavé: When black played the pincer
rthspaz07: which stone was last
]
;B[ph]
;W[oh]
;B[qj]
;W[pk]
;B[ql]LB[qc:C]LB[og:A]SQ[rh]SQ[ri]SQ[rj]LB[om:B]LB[qm:D]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: white can A or B
rthspaz07: but if you actually look at what black as
rthspaz07: has it is not much and can both be attacked
rthspaz07: and white has influence
rthspaz07: white can also C
rthspaz07: and B does the same as the last joseki
RevarIsavé: But that gets more complicated because of o16
rthspaz07: where you can D
rthspaz07: yea and no
rthspaz07: if black o16 instead then top gets weaker or more weak points
rthspaz07: k now you said p14 and r17
rthspaz07: yea if you dont p14 then black can clamp
]
;W[cb]
;B[nh]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: I mean at the start^^
]
(;W[oi]
;B[og]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: thr 4th move
]
;W[ng]
;B[pg]LB[nf:A]LB[pf:B]
)(;W[og]
;B[oi]
;W[ni]
;B[oj]
;W[nj]
;B[ok]
))(;B[nd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here?
RevarIsavé: 2 moves back..
]
))(;W[dp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: another white move that gets complicated is double approach
]
;B[pf]
;W[qe]
;B[qd]
;W[pe]
;B[oe]
;W[pg]
;B[of]
;W[qg]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: hard to kill but black does gain
]
)(;W[nd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this 
rthspaz07: ill show basic and move on
]
;B[pf]
;W[pg]
;B[qg]
;W[qc]
;B[qe]
;W[pc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: there are variations
rthspaz07: dont know most of them though
]
(;B[og]
)(;B[of]
)(;B[rf]
))))(;AB[nc]LB[qc:C]LB[qd:B]LB[rd:A]LB[re:D]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: does this secure the corner?
BulletD0dger: no you need one more
rthspaz07: where can white play
rthspaz07: there may be a few
BulletD0dger: R16
saxmaam: I never know what to do about trying to enclose with 4-4 ... too many moves required
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: which is why when you develop you develop away
BulletD0dger: i think if you want the corner then play 3-4 to begin with
saxmaam: by developing away , you mean ... ?
RevarIsavé: I've seen B often lately
rthspaz07: white has many options
RevarIsavé: But I don't know what to do with it
rthspaz07: but the key here is not the josekis
rthspaz07: but rather that even if play tries to enclose that white an still get in there
rthspaz07: but i still see this played
rthspaz07: now if white approaches
]
(;W[qd]
;B[qc]
;W[qe]
;B[rc]
;W[qh]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: joseki for it
]
)(;W[qf]LB[rd:A]LB[qh:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: much easier to gain from it
rthspaz07: or can pincer
]
;B[rd]
))(;W[dd]
;B[pp]
;W[dp]LB[cj:C]LB[dj:D]LB[pj:A]LB[qj:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok here is a basic 4 moves sequence
rthspaz07: now it is blacks turn
rthspaz07: we will focus on 2 areas here
rthspaz07: the left and right side
rthspaz07: lets say you extend from both 4-4 corners of black play on right
rthspaz07: 4th line or 3rd line?
rthspaz07: A or B?
saxmaam: I usually choose 3d, just for balance
rthspaz07: and why?
BulletD0dger: well 4th line would be more consistent with your other 2 stones
rthspaz07: i would say there is no best move but on right i would say 4th line
rthspaz07: ok how about the left side
rthspaz07: C or D
rthspaz07: and why?
saxmaam: does the reasoning change for white?
rthspaz07: it is blacks move?
BulletD0dger: yea I don't see the difference btw the 2 sides
BulletD0dger: oooh
RevarIsavé: I'm not sure if I remember correctly but I think I read that white sanrensei is common if black plays territorial on the opposing site
rthspaz07: black to move
RevarIsavé: Oh
saxmaam: OK, so as Black I'd like C
rthspaz07: C
saxmaam: can make a bse
rthspaz07: perfect
rthspaz07: as white 
]
(;AB[pj]C[

-- chat --
BulletD0dger: say you play at A, then for balance maybe you can play at R13 or R7 later
rthspaz07: i see
rthspaz07: well for building moyos and framework the 4th line is usually used
rthspaz07: the 4th line is for building
]
)(;B[cj]C[

-- chat --
BulletD0dger: C then if it is black's move because you are coming in btw his "moyo" so you want to play a little more defensively?
rthspaz07: yeas 3rd line is for base
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: Now how to respond?
rthspaz07: well if you attack
]
;W[cl]
;B[cg]
;W[ce]
;B[eg]
;W[fd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: basic here 
rthspaz07: but
RevarIsavé: Black gets sente?
RevarIsavé: Well.. "gets"
rthspaz07: lets say the corners are not 4-4 and there are other moves played
]
)))(;B[oc]LB[ic:A]LB[qc:C]LB[qd:B]LB[pe:D]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: what does this say?
saxmaam: I want the top?
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: Doesn't it say
rthspaz07: this focuses on the dop
RevarIsavé: "You go where you want, I'm fine with the side OR the corner"?
rthspaz07: yes that is also good 
rthspaz07: white normally responds at c, b, or d
saxmaam: how does invasion at A work out?
rthspaz07: ok enclosure for this move?
rthspaz07: ok so lets say you would not like enclose a good way to develop 
rthspaz07: a good move would be around A
]
(;W[qc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: so what black does to focus on top is to press down on white
]
;B[pe]
;W[qe]
;B[pf]LB[jd:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: to build up a wall 
rthspaz07: and white gets the corner
]
;W[qf]
;B[pg]
)(;W[qd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here is similar
rthspaz07: with basic joseki
]
;B[pe]
;W[qe]
;B[pf]
;W[qg]LB[jc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: again focusing on top
]
;B[jc]
)(;W[qe]
;B[qc]
;W[qh]
;B[pg]
;W[qg]
;B[oe]LB[jd:A]
)(;W[pe]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok here white aims for side and will give black corner
]
;B[qd]
;W[qe]
;B[rd]
;W[qi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: but 
]
;B[nd]LB[jc:B]LB[qg:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: black can invade at A or extend on B
]
(;W[qg]
)(;W[jc]
;B[qg]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok where does why respond/
rthspaz07: ?
saxmaam: p13?
rthspaz07: right?
rthspaz07: without s16
rthspaz07: hard to connect
saxmaam: I seem to get hung up on this one, during games.
saxmaam: but I see what you are saying
rthspaz07: well normally s16 is not there then diffferenct story
]
(;W[og]
;B[ph]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: you let black out
rthspaz07: and black can s15 to connect ifyou surround
RevarIsavé: white q12 instead
]
)(;W[ph]
;B[pg]
;W[og]TR[rd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: the point here is s16 right/
rthspaz07: no matter what white does
]
;B[re]
;W[rf]
;B[rg]
(;W[qf]
;B[sf]
)(;W[sg]
)(;W[sf]
;B[qf]
))))(;AB[qd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: how about this
saxmaam: sure
rthspaz07: what does this look like?
RevarIsavé: Just like the enclosure the other way round
saxmaam: 4-3
saxmaam: sure
saxmaam: (ooops, delay)
rthspaz07: yea the 3-4 enclosure
rthspaz07: this can revert to it 
]
)(;AB[pe]LB[qc:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: how about this?
rthspaz07: is this the same as the 3-4 enclosure/
rthspaz07: ?
RevarIsavé: NAy
RevarIsavé: Leaves aji in the corner
saxmaam: no
rthspaz07: yes
rthspaz07: here
]
;W[qc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: remember that with invasions  you might not live but the point is to reduce the area that opponent would get without invading
]
)(;AB[qc]LB[qd:B]LB[pe:A]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: How did the saying go..
RevarIsavé: Attacking isn't always for killing. 
rthspaz07: yep
RevarIsavé: But attacks should gain you something, even if you can't kill
rthspaz07: sometimes you want to let them run and gain while it does
rthspaz07: ok this is opposite of the A enclosure
rthspaz07: it is very secure maybe even too secure
rthspaz07: why do this why you can get more with B
rthspaz07: but maybe that is what you want an enclosure that you dont need to worry about
]
)(;AB[ic]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: now if white approaches corner
]
;W[qd]
;B[pe]
;W[qe]
;B[pf]
;W[qg]LB[ic:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: A is now in perfect spot
]
))(;B[od]LB[ic:D]LB[qc:B]LB[id:C]LB[qd:A]LB[qe:E]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: once again this aims for the top but may allow white underneath when the corner joseki happens
rthspaz07: now black can enclose just like the 3-4
rthspaz07: 3-5
rthspaz07: i mean
saxmaam: So why play 4-5?
rthspaz07: good point 
RevarIsavé: Then why play anything besides the 3-3 ;P
RevarIsavé: Because... (drumroll) balance
saxmaam: ?
rthspaz07: give me sec
RevarIsavé: There's approaches to everything
rthspaz07: the 4-5 has more influence towards center
rthspaz07: but allows white underneath so trade
rthspaz07: not very common move however
rthspaz07: but is played
rthspaz07: does that answer your questions
saxmaam: yes
rthspaz07: i will show some joseki to help understand this point some
saxmaam: though developing the center seems tough compared to sides
rthspaz07: it is 
rthspaz07: but center influence is not always about territory
rthspaz07: but fighting
rthspaz07: the more influence you have in an area the easier it is for you to fight and be aggressive
rthspaz07: thus more potential gain
rthspaz07: and with the 3-5 you can also choose to develop along the top with C or D
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: now that we have gone over the basic corner moves ill show a 14 move fuseki example from a pro game
JackLS: is this live?
cadburie7: d1. From move 0: P16 
]
(;W[qc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here is another approach
]
;B[qe]LB[qj:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: now black as option of take the right
]
;W[oc]
;B[nd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: reverts to the 3-4 opening joseki
]
;W[nc]
;B[md]LB[qj:A]
)(;W[qd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: her is one approach white can do
]
;B[qc]
;W[rc]
;B[pc]
;W[re]
;B[kc]
;W[pf]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: black can choose this joeski
]
)(;W[qe]
;B[qc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: this reverts back to the 3-3 joseki approacch
rthspaz07: but as you notice the 3-5 also has flexibility to revert to other corners joseki
]
))(;B[qc]LB[jc:A]LB[od:B]LB[pd:E]LB[pe:C]LB[qe:F]LB[pf:G]LB[qf:H]LB[qj:D]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok the 3-3
rthspaz07: what do we know about this?
saxmaam: secure but small
rthspaz07: any take a stab at it
rthspaz07: perfect
Pander: secures corner. Common invasion point.
rthspaz07: look at it as a corner move not invasion
rthspaz07: lets say this is blacks first move
rthspaz07: secure but small
rthspaz07: is great way to put it
rthspaz07: ok knowing that is it good for white to approach right away?
saxmaam: I'd think not
rthspaz07: or for black to do an enclosure
rthspaz07: right 
BulletD0dger: corner isn't interesting anymore when there are bigger places to play
rthspaz07: perfect
rthspaz07: due to the softness or smallnest of this move there is no urgency to develop and or approach this move
rthspaz07: it is symmetric 
rthspaz07: so we dont know what side to approach from
rthspaz07: enclosing is still good but not urgent because whiite really doesnt have a great approach that will give him much
rthspaz07: so better to play away
BulletD0dger: is approach 4-4 considered not as good since is it now black who has the first move?
rthspaz07: yep 
rthspaz07: but you can still do it
rthspaz07: lets say that black has made some moves on the board
rthspaz07: but lets say it is time to approach
rthspaz07: E, C, F, G, H as soon basic ways to do that
rthspaz07: so 3-3 small but secure not really good move to approach not urgent
rthspaz07: ok next we move to the 4-4
]
(;W[pd]
;B[qd]
;W[pe]
;B[ob]
;W[md]
;B[rf]
;W[ph]
)(;W[qe]
;B[oc]
)(;W[pe]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: just keep in mind what the approaches mean
rthspaz07: if you approach from this direction you are aiming for the right
rthspaz07: and black will take top
]
;B[od]
;W[oe]
;B[nd]
;W[qd]
;B[rc]
;W[pi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: for example
]
)(;W[pf]
;B[nd]
;W[qj]
;B[jc]
)(;AB[jc]
;AB[qj]LB[jc:B]SQ[lc]SQ[mc]SQ[nc]SQ[oc]LB[qc:C]SQ[qe]SQ[qf]SQ[qg]SQ[qh]LB[qj:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: now black has built up a good framework right
rthspaz07: lots of influence
saxmaam: influence?
saxmaam: I hear peopel talk about 3d line as territoria
rthspaz07: these 3 stones has influence in the following areas
saxmaam: in aggregate, then
rthspaz07: we will get to that :P
rthspaz07: just know that black here has 3 stones and white does not so the black has influence here
rthspaz07: a good way to approach the corner to try to negate the influence would be 
rthspaz07: just saying that normally playing close to the 3-3 is not urgent and black usually plays away as well
]
;W[pd]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here and ill show basic joseki
]
;B[pc]
;W[od]C[

-- chat --
spatula: ok:)
]
;B[re]
;W[pg]C[

-- chat --
spatula: would stones at p10 k16 work as well?
]
;B[nb]
;W[ld]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: q10 but yea 
rthspaz07: i am not focusing on 3rd or 4th line yet
spatula: or is it better to put it in the 3rd line?
rthspaz07: i have something that goes over that
rthspaz07: :P
]
)(;W[od]
;B[pe]
;W[oe]
;B[pf]
;W[pc]
;B[qb]
;W[kd]SQ[qe]SQ[qf]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: a move on top is to aim for the top
rthspaz07: but notice here how much black gets
rthspaz07: white really could not add pressure
rthspaz07: due to the safeness of the 3-3 point
]
)(;W[qf]
;B[od]
;W[qi]
;B[kc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: just some examples
rthspaz07: ok so 3-3 is safe but small and not urgent to play near
rthspaz07: so
]
)(;W[dp]
;B[cc]
;W[pq]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: well i would not recommend black doing 2 like this
]
)(;W[pq]
;B[dd]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: Much secure, such small tho
]
;W[dp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: so if black did 3-3 then 4-4 
rthspaz07: no need to play close to blacks corners
rthspaz07: and white has a 3-4 open
rthspaz07: so good to approach
]
;B[po]
;W[qo]
;B[qn]
;W[qp]
;B[pn]
;W[nq]
;B[qj]LB[qc:B]LB[qj:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: good extention from the 3-3 and prevent enclosure
rthspaz07: so one way to use the 3-3 
rthspaz07: but using 2 3-3 i would not prefer or teach
]
)(;W[dc]
;B[qp]
;W[dq]
;B[oq]
;W[co]
;B[ce]
;W[qj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok here is blacks move
rthspaz07: and he chose to extend his group out the left
]
;B[ch]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok this could be considered a mistake 
rthspaz07: why?
RevarIsavé: Now r10 can extend to both sides
RevarIsavé: Extend to one side - black has to respond
RevarIsavé: Then to the other
RevarIsavé: I'm talking about the right side
rthspaz07: ah we are focusing on left
rthspaz07: :P
RevarIsavé: Ah
rthspaz07: on right white is ok either way
saxmaam: ?
rthspaz07: look at spacing
rthspaz07: why is the  2 space jump considered mistake here?
saxmaam: from 1 extend 2?
saxmaam: I dunno
rthspaz07: someone should know this
rthspaz07: anyone close to 10k should know
rthspaz07: ill give hint
rthspaz07: involves kicking
rthspaz07: no?
saxmaam: looks like we get to learn something now
]
(;W[cj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this?
RevarIsavé: r10
]
)(;AB[qh]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: doesn't contain E17
]
;W[qm]
)(;AB[ql]
;W[qg]
)(;W[cd]
;B[de]LB[ec:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: because of this move
rthspaz07: which is called "kicking" the stone
rthspaz07: yep thx for joining
saxmaam: ok, what's so bad about this kick
rthspaz07: black is now a 2 stones wall
rthspaz07: and what is the spacing of a 2 stone wall?
saxmaam: 3
rthspaz07: where is black at?
saxmaam: 2
rthspaz07: thus the mistake
rthspaz07: black can A so white much respond
]
;W[fc]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: and the game continues
]
;B[iq]
;W[qm]
;B[fq]
;W[qe]
;B[od]
;W[md]LB[md:B]LB[qe:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: who favors who here?
rthspaz07: white or black?
saxmaam: p16 looks awkward for Black, otherwise I dunno
rthspaz07: overall here i like white
rthspaz07: and here is why
rthspaz07: he took advantage of blacks mistake on left and over crowded black
rthspaz07: and he did great extension/approach with A
rthspaz07: since white is strong on top let and on right
rthspaz07: white can be aggressive here with B
rthspaz07: so white has gain the advantage i
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: another problem ehre
rthspaz07: here
]
)))(;B[qp]
;W[dc]
;B[qc]
;W[dq]
;B[oq]
;W[qj]
;B[ce]
;W[co]
;B[ch]
;W[cd]
;B[de]
;W[fc]
;B[iq]
;W[qm]
;B[fq]
;W[qe]
;B[od]
;W[md]LB[ec:A]LB[fc:4]LB[gc:B]LB[cd:2]LB[md:10]LB[od:9]LB[de:3]LB[qe:8]LB[ch:1]LB[qm:6]LB[fq:7]LB[iq:5]
)(;B[pp]
;AB[qp]
;AB[qq]
;AB[qp]
;AB[ro]
;AB[rn]
;AB[oq]
;AB[nq]
;AB[eq]
;AW[mq]
;AW[mp]
;AW[np]
;AW[op]
;AW[po]
;AW[qo]
;AW[qn]
;AW[qm]
;AW[qn]
;W[cq]
(;AW[do]LB[do:2]LB[eq:1]
(;AB[iq]
;AW[gq]
)(;AB[hq]LB[ep:C]LB[dq:B]LB[jq:A]
;AW[oc]
;B[qd]
;W[kc]
;B[qg]
;AB[cd]
;AB[ec]TR[hq]
(;W[cj]
;B[ch]
)(;W[ck]
;B[ci]
)(;W[ci]LB[cf:A]TR[do]
)(;W[ch]
;B[cj]
(;W[cf]
;B[cm]
)(;W[cl]
;B[di]
;W[dh]
;B[fi]
;W[eh]
;B[ei]
;W[gg]
;B[hi]
)))(;AB[hp]LB[fo:A]LB[gq:B]LB[jq:C]
)(;AB[gq]
;AW[iq]
)(;AW[pd]
))(;B[cd]
;W[do]
))(;B[dp]
(;W[fq]
;B[hq]
)(;W[pq]
;B[sa]
;W[qo]
;B[ra]
;W[fq]
;B[eq]
;W[fp]
;B[dn]
(;W[jq]
;B[lq]
)(;W[iq]
;B[kq]
;W[mq]
;B[ko]
;W[io]
;B[km]
)))(;B[cp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok now the 3-4 pincers
]
;W[eq]LB[gp:E]LB[hp:F]LB[ip:G]LB[gq:A]LB[hq:B]LB[iq:C]LB[jq:D]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: low and high
rthspaz07: many variations
rthspaz07: but concept is get stronger then attack weak stone
]
(;B[gq]LB[hq:A]LB[iq:B]LB[jq:C]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: though behind them the same
rthspaz07: prevent white base and gain from him running
rthspaz07: but white response is similar
rthspaz07: get stronger and attack the weak stone
]
;W[eo]
(;B[dn]
;W[hp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: similar to the 4-4 pincer
rthspaz07: ok time for questions
RevarIsavé: I think the one I had earlier got settled
rthspaz07: k
rthspaz07: awesome
rthspaz07: this is my first lecture hopefully i did well enough for many to learn from it
RevarIsavé: It was quite some input
RevarIsavé: But
rthspaz07: but most important thing is reading
rthspaz07: if you have questions on a joseki move get a game reviewed for that
rthspaz07: and get moves explained
RevarIsavé: With some things being sort of fresh right now I can already say I learned something. And I'll go over this again :)
RevarIsavé: And thank you a lot for all the effort you put into it
rthspaz07: i would not touch joseki until getting closer to the 4-6k range
rthspaz07: k thx for attending
RevarIsavé: I would say covering the corners touched that, didn't it? ;)
rthspaz07: i am usually around if anyone has questions link game and ask and ill get to it when i can
rthspaz07: yea 
besanit: thanks
rthspaz07: try what you learned and get reviews
RevarIsavé: Yes, thank you again
rthspaz07: yep well i have to get going 
rthspaz07: later
RevarIsavé: I didn't expect things to become this big when I asked you :D
RevarIsavé: Bye bye
rthspaz07: yea it is all good we will go over thnkgs one on one
]
;B[dq]
;W[er]
;B[hq]
;W[ip]
;B[gp]
;W[go]
;B[iq]
;W[jp]
;B[kq]
;W[fp]LB[dn:2]LB[eo:1]LB[go:9]LB[fp:13]LB[gp:8]LB[hp:3]LB[ip:7]LB[jp:11]LB[dq:4]TR[gq]LB[hq:6]LB[iq:10]LB[kq:12]LB[er:5]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: press the low pincers
rthspaz07: and counter pincer the high ones
]
)(;B[jq]
;W[cn]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this for exampel
rthspaz07: is this joseki i have no idea but still attack weak one
]
))(;B[gp]LB[hp:A]LB[ip:B]
;W[eo]
;B[dn]
;W[ip]LB[go:A]LB[gq:B]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: can connect both
]
;B[gn]
;W[gq]LB[dn:2]LB[gn:4]LB[eo:1]TR[gp]LB[ip:3]LB[gq:5]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: basic
]
)(;B[hp]
;W[en]
;B[eo]
;W[fo]
;B[do]
;W[fp]
;B[fn]
;W[gn]
;B[fm]
;W[ho]
))(;B[pq]
;W[dq]
;B[po]
;W[do]
;B[jq]
;W[hq]
(;B[jo]
(;W[ho]LB[lo:B]LB[lq:A]
)(;W[sa]
;B[ho]
;W[fq]LB[ip:A]
))(;B[jn]LB[ln:A]
))(;B[sa]
;W[cp]
;B[ep]
;W[eq]
;B[fq]
;W[dq]
;B[fp]
;W[cn]
(;B[jq]
)(;B[jp]
;W[rb]
;B[em]
))(;B[dc]
;W[de]
;B[cg]
(;W[ef]LB[fc:A]LB[dh:B]
;B[ce]
;W[cd]
;B[dd]
;W[cf]
;B[be]
;W[bf]
;B[bd]
;W[ed]
;B[ec]
;W[fd]
;B[fc]
;W[gd]
)(;W[fe]
;B[ce]
))(;B[ce]
)(;B[cd]
;W[cp]
;B[ec]
;W[ep]
(;B[ci]
;W[dk]
)(;B[ch]
;W[dj]
;B[dl]
;W[ei]C[

-- chat --
suhird403: k
suhird403: ty I am learning
]
))(;AB[qd]LB[kc:D]LB[nc:C]LB[oc:A]LB[od:B]SQ[pj]SQ[qj]
;AB[oc]LB[nc:B]LB[od:A]
)(;AW[dc]
(;B[de]
;W[ce]
;B[cf]
;W[cd]
;B[dg]
;W[fc]
;B[ck]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: Do you have a lot more you want to cover? I still have a question from way earlier
]
;W[dq]
;B[fq]
;W[co]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok
rthspaz07: here we are focusing on whites move
rthspaz07: on the left side
]
(;AW[cm]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here
rthspaz07: this is still a good move but narrow
rthspaz07: would be bigger moves on board
]
;B[ek]
)(;AW[cl]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok why not here/
rthspaz07: ?
]
;B[dl]
;W[cm]
;B[dk]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: makes black stronger
rthspaz07: yep
rthspaz07: black is too strong and you are forces to c7
RevarIsavé: White can tenuki now... but gave black influence as a present
rthspaz07: so if extend better to c7
rthspaz07: yep
]
))(;AE[dc]
;AW[cc]
;AW[cd]
;AW[eb]
;AW[fd]
;AW[cq]
;AW[cn]
;AB[dd]
;AB[de]
;AB[ce]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: so the idea is that the higher wall can keep a larger extension connected, I guess?
rthspaz07: but key here is black is between 2 white groups and 2 stone wall
rthspaz07: well the higher the wall the more influence the more you will be able to press white
]
(;AB[fp]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: ok focusing on the black group on the left
rthspaz07: where should he extend
RevarIsavé: c10
saxmaam: so this is an example of "from two, extend 3"
]
(;B[cj]LB[ce:1]LB[de:2]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: or d11 maybe
saxmaam: agree c10
rthspaz07: at c10 white would be able to invade
rthspaz07: 2 stones wall takes a 3 space extension
]
;W[ch]
(;B[di]
;W[dh]
;B[eh]LB[de:A]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: like this?
RevarIsavé: Yeah
rthspaz07: either white takes A
BulletD0dger: this is gonna get complicated
rthspaz07: or white runs out
]
;W[eg]
;B[dg]
(;W[fh]
;B[ei]
;W[df]
;B[cg]
;W[cf]
;B[bg]
;W[bf]
)(;W[cg]
;B[df]
;W[bj]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: I see
rthspaz07: here is tough
]
(;B[pd]
;W[ei]
;B[fh]
;W[dj]
;B[ci]
;W[ck]
;B[bi]
)(;B[fh]
;W[bk]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: can escape
]
)))(;B[dh]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here not the case
]
))(;B[di]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: Can't black push that towards the group in the corner though?
rthspaz07: this is better but still not quite right
]
)(;B[ci]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: 4 stones
]
;W[cg]
(;B[dh]
;W[dg]
;B[eg]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: similar but now black and just
]
)(;B[dg]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: here
rthspaz07: and stay connected
rthspaz07: no matter what white does black is connected
]
))(;B[ee]
;AB[cj]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: 3 stones take 4 space
rthspaz07: 4 stones 5 space and so on
]
))(;AB[ee]
;AB[fe]
;AB[ge]
;AB[he]
;AB[ck]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: what were you showing
RevarIsavé: Eh, I can't find it right now
RevarIsavé: But it's not important
rthspaz07: k
rthspaz07: ok another pro example here
]
;B[dq]
;W[ci]
;B[ej]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: it did work
]
(;W[ei]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: No, it isn't showing what I wanted to
rthspaz07: hmm i only see what i put on your variation
]
;B[fi]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: you can press
rthspaz07: or a good way to show is this
]
)(;W[eh]
;B[gi]
;W[gg]
;B[hg]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: something like this
saxmaam: ok
rthspaz07: where as if we reduce the wall
]
;AE[he]
;AE[ge]
;AE[fe]
;AE[ee]C[

-- chat --
rthspaz07: doesnt work
]
;W[gf]C[

-- chat --
RevarIsavé: Always this situation but located further inside. From move 0: D17 D17 C17 C16 E18 F16 C3 C6 D16 D15 C15 E15 F15 G15 H15 C9 D3 C11 E10 E12 G11 G13 H13 H15 G15 F15 E15 G14 
RevarIsavé: Huh, sharing the variation doesn't work
RevarIsavé: Or does it?
BulletD0dger: i must go, but thank you very much for the great review!
]
))))(;B[pc]
))