(;FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
GM[1]
DT[2015-09-08]
GN[TNL game: rsk vs LostStone]
PC[https://online-go.com/review/78165]
PB[rsk]
PW[LostStone]
BR[11k]
WR[13k]
TM[2700]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
RE[B+R]
SZ[19]
KM[6.5]
RU[Japanese]

;B[po]C[

-- chat --
yuri: hi sax
]
;W[qd]
;B[cd]
;W[dp]
;B[oq]
;W[ec]
;B[dc]
;W[db]
;B[cb]
;W[dd]
;B[cc]
;W[fd]
;B[eb]
;W[fb]
;B[da]
;W[de]
;B[ce]
;W[cf]
;B[bf]C[ i think b14 is a little passive, i mean its nice and everything, but the group is settled.

-- chat --
yuri: i think b14 is a little passive, i mean its nice and everything, but the group is settled.
yuri: damn it, used to doing this live..ignore this unordered section, i'll put all the comments in the moves
saxmaam: seems like a thing that DDK wouldn't know how to use
saxmaam: ie - me
]
;W[cg]
;B[bg]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: ok, how about that big enclosure on bottom right?  good?
yuri: oh, you know, i wouldn't have done that
yuri: but i'm not confident in saying its bad
yuri: its a big influence play, and as we see later clearly doesn't seal the corner
yuri: yeah, it seems like it would be a valid structure for a stronger player
yuri: but* if you look ahead, that turns into an area of such strong B influence
yuri: that it wins back a lost game for B...so, maybe its the perfect thing ? :)
]
;W[bh]
;B[ch]
;W[dh]
;B[ci]
;W[cm]C[this followup definitely favors white, the two black stones at c11 still have some bad aji and need another move to take b12.  otoh, later in the game it may be possible to press the white wall into a dumpling shape with the continuation at d11

-- chat --
yuri: and this followup definitely favors white
yuri: so I think B was making a mistake by crawling here
saxmaam: ok
yuri: C11 isn't very useful, and W got a nice big wall
yuri: and c7 is a good extension
]
;B[jd]C[k16 is kind of a strange approach, because it really invites an extension from r16

-- chat --
yuri: k16 is kind of a strange approach, because it really invites an extension from r16
yuri: what do you think about K16?
saxmaam: I was just wondering how B could neutralize that wall
saxmaam: it happens to me all the time
yuri: thats a good question, but K16 maybe isn't a good way
saxmaam: I get big wall but opponent makes it not worth much
yuri: if W approaches from the left, then B can run into the wall or out
yuri: but B isn't making any territory, and W is by chasing B
yuri: thats what walls are good for, constraining your opponents movements
]
(;W[ic]C[

-- chat --
yuri: i think its better to use the d15 wall to drive B against here rather than taking territory at this point
yuri: cause then you get to take territory on the top and protect r16 in the same motion
yuri: but here, W played the wrong way
yuri: by taking territory off the wall too early
yuri: so...anyways, thats why i think j17 is slack
]
;B[od]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: what should W have done then?
yuri: now B is getting a position by attacking R16
]
;W[oc]
;B[pc]C[q17 should probably be reserved for special situations.

-- chat --
yuri: so Q17 turns out good for B, but i think its not a good move
yuri: those guys leave the cut at Q16 open forever
saxmaam: yeah, the advice is to hane on the outside
yuri: definately
yuri: then you can see B developing a position...this is...something 
]
;W[nc]
;B[nd]
(;W[lc]C[

-- chat --
yuri: somehow it really pains me to see q16 left empty here
]
;B[mc]C[

-- chat --
yuri: this is one of those sad places where they are both making mistakes...so the outcome is largely random
]
;W[mb]
;B[md]C[

-- chat --
yuri: but W can't be too proud of the result
]
;W[ld]
;B[nb]
;W[ob]
;B[pb]
;W[na]
(;B[qc]C[

-- chat --
yuri: w didn't get a super great position here. traded the corner for a low wall at m16
]
(;W[jc]
;B[rd]
(;W[qe]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: ok
]
;B[re]C[

-- chat --
yuri: b is chasing underneath to protect the cut at q16 (that damn thing)
]
;W[qf]
;B[rf]
;W[qh]
(;B[rh]C[

-- chat --
yuri: this is one of those difficult points in the review where both w and b had such strange notions that both could have gotten a much better result
]
;W[qi]
;B[qg]C[

-- chat --
yuri: ok, just a point about the line at r14....later these stones die
yuri: because W isn't really establishing a position, just plonking em down
yuri: they are a liability as soon as they are born
]
;W[pg]
;B[rg]
(;W[of]C[for some reason i think the solid connection is better here than the hanging one, but at least q16 is in play again

-- chat --
saxmaam: damez ....
yuri: oh yeah, damezumari
yuri: this hanging connection makes the situation even worse
]
;B[pd]C[

-- chat --
yuri: seems like a lot of this would have been avoided by not playing the hane on the inside
saxmaam: check
yuri: but B came out ok, because W is so weak
]
;W[gq]
;B[iq]C[well, not going to say that the extension is seriously bad, but there are a few points.

  - is probably to large to avoid invasion. 
  - since g3 is effectively settled, j3 looks weak
  - since q13 is still pretty iffy, there is plenty of good sente sugar left there. even M15]
;W[ck]C[a little slow, not really bad though, pretty nice corner development..but is the 3-3 at c3 still in play?]
;B[pk]C[there we go, thats pretty nice. development and semi-direct threat

-- chat --
yuri: there we go, thats pretty nice. development and semi-direct threat
yuri: those were all nice, understandable position developing moves
yuri: but Q9 is great
yuri: look at that extension, and look at poor W
yuri: but to go back to your earlier question, a classic shimmer would have been even better here
yuri: (shimari)
yuri: damn autocorrect
yuri: just as strong on the outside, but covers the inside as well
]
;W[kq]C[ok, so we talked about this as a possibility earlier. whats going to be the natural result. b is going to run out into the center, and you're going to have to extend to save yourself, since there is no room for a base. thats kinda ok, but it means that b will have a group across the J line, which is gonna reduce the influence and moyo potential of your corner group. lets see if i was right

-- chat --
yuri: so this attack is almost as dubious as the K16 one B did earlier
]
;B[eo]C[oh no, B does a strange capping move! i don't this this is a bad idea, but given that its going to let w seal off the corner and probably isn't going to help j3, maybe not a good time

-- chat --
yuri: and this cap by B is super-suspect
yuri: but what happens is that w and b calmly exchange the inside and the outside
yuri: w gets a corner, but it seems like w should ask for more here, given two B stones
yuri: attack and chase
]
;W[do]
;B[ep]
;W[eq]
;B[dn]
;W[cn]
;B[dm]
;W[dq]
;B[dk]
;W[bj]
;B[bi]C[

-- chat --
yuri: W wastes the aji at c11
saxmaam: locally?
saxmaam: no base, no territory
]
;W[di]
;B[dj]
;W[cj]
;B[ah]
;W[ir]
;B[hq]
;W[hr]
;B[gp]
;W[fq]
;B[cl]
;W[bl]
;B[dl]C[ok. so W got a big corner here and B got big influence. there is still some aji left at f4, and i think white could have pushed through at d8 at some point here. this isn't terrible, but i can't help but think that W should have cut B.

also the exchange around C12 was really aji-keshi, W didn't get anything good from that, W's c10 is just lumpy as blacks C11

-- chat --
yuri: whats wrong with Bs position?
yuri: yeah, in the lower left
yuri: yeah, its kinda scrunchy
]
(;W[mf]C[

-- chat --
yuri: this isn't a bad move by W to try to make something out of those stones and extend the moyo
]
;B[oe]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: well, I just looked at your alternatives
yuri: (cheater)
saxmaam: from move 87 as white?
yuri: yeah
yuri: or do you think its worth saving R16?
saxmaam: hard to abandon R16
yuri: except is so gote :(
saxmaam: yeah, I guess let it go and something like o11?
yuri: 6 points in gote at this stage is probably not a good exchange
]
(;W[en]C[ok! given the size of b's wall this was probably the wrong place to cut

-- chat --
yuri: this is a good direction, but the wrong attach
yuri: attack
yuri: where would you cut or invade or erase here?
]
;B[fn]
;W[em]
(;B[fm]
;W[el]C[

-- chat --
yuri: ok, now it all gets very sad
yuri: b lets white do this when b didn't have to
]
;B[ek]
;W[fl]
;B[fk]
;W[gl]
;B[hl]
;W[gk]
;B[pf]C[

-- chat --
yuri: also a bad time to take r16, its points, but kind gote
yuri: leaves q13 looking poorly though
]
;W[pe]
;B[pf]
(;W[fj]C[pretty sad for B, now white corner is huge..the lesson here is not just a fighting lesson, but if you are going to make an exchange and build a wall, try to make a good wall.

another thing for B to look at is whether there are any sacrifices that can be made to save the position in some way, like h3]
;B[hj]C[h10 doesn't really serve a purpose, but you can feel the intent behind it to try to save something here. this is a good time to take a deep breath, take stock of what you've got and white's weaknesses, and come up with a good plan]
;W[fo]
;B[fp]
;W[go]C[

-- chat --
yuri: now b struggles and W wins
]
;B[gn]
;W[hp]
;B[hn]
;W[jq]
;B[ip]
;W[io]
;B[jp]
;W[kp]
;B[jo]
;W[jn]
;B[ko]
;W[lo]
;B[kn]
;W[in]
;B[im]
;W[gm]
;B[hm]
;W[ho]
;B[jm]
;W[gi]
;B[ei]
;W[ej]
;B[eh]
;W[dg]
;B[eg]
;W[ef]
;B[ff]
;W[fg]
;B[fh]
;W[gg]
;B[gh]
;W[hh]
;B[gf]
;W[hg]
;B[hf]
;W[km]
;B[ln]
(;W[mr]
;B[mq]
;W[lq]
;B[nr]
;W[mp]C[

-- chat --
yuri: this play on the bottom side by W turns out quite sad
yuri: not really getting anything but a big lump
yuri: and B succeeds in building a wall that establishes the game-winning moyo
]
;B[nq]
;W[ls]
;B[mo]
;W[lp]C[probably better to fight the ko here, rather than let B seal this area off]
(;B[np]
;W[mn]
;B[lm]
(;W[no]
;B[mm]
;W[kl]
;B[nn]
;W[mo]
;B[oo]
;W[hi]C[can't think of a purpose for this move]
;B[jl]
;W[kk]
;B[jk]
;W[kj]
;B[jj]
;W[ji]
;B[ii]
(;W[ih]
;B[ij]
;W[hk]
;B[ki]
;W[jh]
;B[lj]
;W[li]
;B[kh]
;W[lk]
;B[mj]
;W[mk]
;B[nk]
;W[lh]
;B[kg]
;W[nj]
;B[mi]
;W[ni]
;B[mh]
;W[lg]
;B[ml]
;W[nm]
;B[on]
;W[nl]
;B[ll]C[W didn't have to die here, but its helpful to look at whats at stake when the fight started. W had been happily gobbling up little black pieces and poor B was just trying to get something to live. so W saw a tasty treat at H7. by losing the cutting stones W granted B the right half of the board. in one motion B isn't looking so bad anymore, and in fact could win]
;W[ok]C[

-- chat --
yuri: lots of tesuji mistakes
yuri: can W live on the right?
saxmaam: tenuous
yuri: i couldn't find a way
saxmaam: could connect to upper, though
]
;B[mk]C[

-- chat --
yuri: where?
saxmaam: M15
]
(;W[pj]C[W needs to take a second and think very carefully where two eyes can possibly come from]
;B[ol]
;W[pl]
;B[oj]
;W[gc]
;B[oh]
;W[oi]
;B[ok]
;W[pm]
;B[om]
;W[qk]
;B[rj]
;W[qj]
;B[ph]
;W[pi]
;B[nh]
;W[if]
;B[hd]C[this is impossible, it might be better to unambiguously take the lower right, or just take the m13 stones]
;W[hc]
;B[ie]
(;W[id]
;B[jf]
;W[ig]
;B[jg]
;W[kd]
;B[je]C[

-- chat --
yuri: H14 shouldn't have lived, that was just W being sloppy
yuri: w gets the lower right corner..and still loses
]
;W[le]
;B[kb]
;W[lb]
;B[kc]C[don't know what L17 is for. at this point in the game a move can get a few points in either direction, so its important to try to get at least something for each move

-- chat --
saxmaam: Hi
]
;W[jb]
;B[fa]
;W[ga]
;B[ea]
;W[ka]
;B[gd]
;W[fe]
;B[he]
;W[nf]
;B[og]
;W[ro]
;B[ri]
;W[rk]
;B[ql]
;W[rm]
;B[rl]
;W[qq]
;B[pq]
;W[qr]
;B[qp]
;W[rp]
;B[qo]
;W[ns]
;B[os]
;W[ms]C[obviously reading and tesuji are important. but i think its also healthy to develop an instinctive distaste for lumpy shapes. this move did nothing except doom its neighbors, and set up for the misread that killed the next lump over as well

going back to the discussion when this group was created, it served no purpose for W and let B build a big moyo...not only that, it was so crippled for liberties that it itself died]
;B[or]
;W[sr]
;B[qs]
;W[rs]
;B[ps]
;W[sq]
;B[rn]
;W[qn]
;B[sk]
;W[qm]
;B[sn]
;W[so]
;B[sm]
;W[sl]
;B[pn]
;W[sm]
;B[jr]
;W[kr]
;B[js]
;W[ks]
;B[lr]C[

-- chat --
yuri: that was..a. mistake
saxmaam: yeah
yuri: but regardless, building dumplings doesn't do you any good
yuri: even if they live
saxmaam: arenm
yuri: so I think that dumpling already killed white
saxmaam: arent there situations where dumpling takes points from opponent and decides the game?
yuri: only if its cutting i think
yuri: which this one wasn't
saxmaam: Ok
yuri: or if its an invasion i guess
yuri: but this one let B build a big wall, and gave no points to W
saxmaam: ok, I'll take a look at that later on
yuri: k. gotta go, lets do it again sometime
saxmaam: thanks!
saxmaam: bye
]
)(;W[jf]C[should have been impossible for B to live, just firmly extend]
)(;W[kf]C[or maybe better here if you want to also save the M13 stones]
))(;W[le]
;B[ng]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: yeah, just some of it
yuri: if b gets that whole side, b wins
yuri: which...b did!
]
))(;W[jh]C[seems safer]
))(;W[kl]
;B[no]
;W[qm]C[

-- chat --
yuri: maybe not there, but W needed to arrange an invasion
]
))(;B[no]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: B wins
yuri: i think i made this comment a few times...try to connect without leaving those cuts
yuri: and B wins
yuri: but B shouldn't have won
yuri: W got that huge* lower left
yuri: so really this play on the bottom side lost W the game
]
))(;W[pm]C[

-- chat --
yuri: this guy has some potential
yuri: now whose game is it?
yuri: assuming Q7 lives
saxmaam: I'm not good at evealuating
yuri: where is B's house?
saxmaam: you mean no base for anything on lower right?
yuri: in the best case, how big are B's territories?
yuri: the middle is floating even if it all lives
yuri: pretty much just the three corners
saxmaam: best case ... I guess B gets small middle and pretty good sized LR
yuri: probably no middle
yuri: since H7 is still a huge liability
saxmaam: pl
saxmaam: ok
yuri: have to go soon, but lets see how this plays out
]
))(;W[gj]C[

-- chat --
yuri: thats probably better to capture, always have to try to make the most out of each move
]
))(;B[fl]C[not 100% certain this works here, but a net approach is probably better than the broken ladder]
;W[fo]
;B[fp]
;W[fm]
;B[gm]
;W[gn]
;B[el]
;W[fn]
;B[hn]
;W[go]
;B[ho]
))(;W[fp]C[this is 100% safe and somewhat unsettling already]
)(;W[gm]C[sometimes a move like this that threatens the cut and has more room to run is better]
)(;W[pf]C[its probably interesting to go back to when these stones were played, crawling along the 3rd line in a black sphere of influence. now they're really just a liability aren't they, W would have to play gote to save them, they don't establish any territory or threaten black in any way
]
)(;W[ni]C[

-- chat --
yuri: thats not bad
saxmaam: though the 2 space jump looks awkward
yuri: no, i think thats a good space
yuri: your moving the moyo line between W and B
yuri: protecting the cut at Q12....
yuri: setting up an invasion at Q7
yuri: like that
yuri: where does B answer?
saxmaam: q10 would make W play empty triangle, but doesn't look good otherwise
saxmaam: o10 ... or is that also gote?
yuri: not so much the empty triangle, but it strengthens Bs space...i ask because i'm not sure
]
(;B[nj]C[

-- chat --
yuri: that attachment isn't good
]
)(;B[mk]C[

-- chat --
saxmaam: meant o9
yuri: better just do this
yuri: oh, yeah, o9 is ok, just a little slow
saxmaam: ok
]
)))(;W[mq]
;B[ik]C[

-- chat --
yuri: thats kinda the best you could imagine
yuri: and there is a defect at F4
]
))(;W[pf]
))(;B[qg]C[this is probably a lot more threatening to W, if you do this the cut at q16 thats been sitting there this whole time probably becomes damezumari

-- chat --
saxmaam: ooh, a new word
yuri: but here this is good enough, and W either walks from the stones or gives B a lot of territory
]
))(;W[pg]
;B[qe]
;W[pj]C[

-- chat --
yuri: this isn't great, but at least a position is being made
yuri: which new word?
]
))(;W[pd]C[maybe it doesn't work out, but i think this cut is a lot more interesting that joining..those two groups can probably take care of themselves]
))(;B[pd]C[this seems safer to me]
))(;W[pd]C[i like this better, it keeps the corner and the influence on the right...admittedly ceding a living but small position to black]
))(;W[nd]C[this is probably best? black gets to make a base
thought, white gets a lot in return

-- chat --
saxmaam: ok, you already answered that
saxmaam: sorry
yuri: thats fine
yuri: so you think that B has ruined whites top side
yuri: but really it still wasn't whites
yuri: and now the top right really is whites and B is on the run
]
)(;W[lc]C[this one puts more pressure on black, but allows white to be split. i bet a dan would have a really good suggestion here

-- chat --
saxmaam: yeah, more like B can ruin W's investment
yuri: from what little i've been able to learn, taking territory directly is a losing game
yuri: if you take territory by chasing your opponent, thats how to win
yuri: because when your opponent is running, they aren't making any territory themselves
yuri: so i think this sets up a great running situation
yuri: whites wall on the left isn't under any threat
yuri: even if it doesn't make any territory directly
]
))