Becoming 9 Kyu - Lesson 26

Move 3

Black[2d]

0 captures

White[2d]

0 captures

+ 6.5

Unranked

Rules: Japanese

Review by: ...

Move 0 + 3

September 21, 2019

[13:52] fishku[2d]: hi

[13:52] Aobozu[2k]: nice!

[13:52] aresdonuts[6k]: hey guys

[13:53] clackie[6k]: hi!

[13:53] aresdonuts[6k]: is there a discord or anything open for this?

[13:53] PfvaldtherGroenholm[4k]: Hi and thanks in advance for the lecture

[13:54] mark5000[7d]: No, this is a text lecture only.

[13:54] aresdonuts[6k]: cool

[13:54] CalabiYau[6k]: hi

[13:54] AnthofromWorld[3k]: Hi thanks for the lesson

[13:54] CalabiYau[6k]: yeah thanks Mark !

[13:55] aresdonuts[6k]: When did you start playing go mark?

[13:56] Aobozu[2k]: Thanks Mark!

[13:57] mark5000[7d]: I started playing Go 10 years ago in college. I joined a Go club there and got hooked. Then I studied a lot as a hobby and gradually increased rank over the years. I've been a dan player for a few years now.

Move 0 + 8

[14:03] Yaka_Go[6d]: what if black doesnt defend

Move 0 + 6

[14:04] mark5000[7d]: Good question

[14:04] mark5000[7d]: Of course, a 4 dan knows this and so is just testing the beginners. ;) Does anybody know?

[14:05] mark5000[7d]: White to punish Black's play elsewhere.

[14:05] fishku[2d]: r15?

[14:05] clackie[6k]: you could play s18 in sente

[14:05] 字成長[4d]: i think W play at S15

[14:05] Fysh[6k]: s18?

Move 0 + 7

[14:05] PfvaldtherGroenholm[4k]: S15?

Move 0 + 6

[14:05] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: Clamp?

[14:05] Burak23[4k]: S15 ?

[14:06] GarthSchmader[6k]: r15

[14:06] mark5000[7d]: I'm glad we talked about this, since we have a few answers.

[14:06] mark5000[7d]: All of those moves punish Black, but some are better than others.

Move 0 + 8

[14:06] geotheory[6k]: R12

Move 0 + 10

[14:08] jillgoodgal[9k]: plus white starts to get thickness pointed down the right side

Move 0

[14:08] TheApprentice[8k]: mark5000, thanks for this " joseki lecture"

Move 0 + 10

[14:08] mark5000[7d]: welcome

Move 0 + 6

[14:08] geotheory[6k]: How did white get 2 moves?

Move 0 + 11

[14:09] clackie[6k]: black tneuki

Move 0 + 8

[14:10] jillgoodgal[9k]: white gets two local moves if black plays elsewhere

Move 0 + 6

[14:10] mark5000[7d]: Clamp at R15 is fine, but Black would live small on the side.

[14:10] Аlрhа - 1 5 2[?]: Hi, Mark!

[14:10] mark5000[7d]: Bending at S18 is a bit more slack, letting Black fix the cutting point right afterwards.

[14:10] geotheory[6k]: Pretty big 'if' when we're talking tactical battle?

[14:10] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: But R15 removes aji of him coming around your group into the middle?

[14:11] fishku[2d]: Can we say that r15 might be viable if sente is big, as s15 seems to be gote?

Move 0 + 8

[14:11] user5555[4k]: @geo: it's not a big if at all... it's just a variation to show why black has to defend here.

Move 0 + 9

[14:11] user5555[4k]: ... and to see how white would punish if B didn't.

Move 0 + 14

[14:13] mark5000[7d]: fishku, sure. It's a bit beyond the level of this lecture though.

Move 0 + 5

[14:13] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: Is this a preference thign?

Move 0 + 7

[14:13] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: I prefer the influence and wall of R15 vs living small of S15.

Move 0 + 14

[14:14] geotheory[6k]: @<error> of course that could happen, but then we're not talking about fighting black's top game are we..

Move 0 + 7

[14:14] mark5000[7d]: Yes, both moves are possible

[14:14] mark5000[7d]: Let's get back to the main variation.

[14:14] mark5000[7d]: Black should not play elsewhere at this point without a very good reason.

Move 0 + 8

[14:15] user5555[4k]: @geo: the board is big, you never know what else there is that B might want to do... and sometimes your opp just makes a mistake, then it is always good to know WHY this was a mistake...

[14:15] Аlрhа - 1 5 2[?]: Mark, What if black plays q15 instead of s15? Can it be good for anything?

[14:15] user5555[4k]: ... it's not like we just hope that B will play stupid here ;-)

Move 0 + 7

[14:16] mark5000[7d]: Good question, too.

[14:16] user5555[4k]: i was wondering about Q15 also

[14:16] mark5000[7d]: This looks better than playing elsewhere. It does defend the cutting point somewhat

[14:16] mark5000[7d]: Of course it doesn't actually defend the cutting point does it?

[14:16] mark5000[7d]: White can reactivate it while gaining points in the corner.

[14:17] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: S15 again?

[14:17] Аlрhа - 1 5 2[?]: S16

Move 0 + 9

[14:17] Аlрhа - 1 5 2[?]: Variation: 1

Move 0 + 14

[14:18] geotheory[6k]: @<error> I get that. I just don't see value in hypothesising about such moves in context of a tight tactical contest

Move 0 + 6

[14:18] clackie[6k]: to understand why some moves are better than others

[14:18] mark5000[7d]: So if your opponent plays Q15, just take the corner.

Move 0 + 8

[14:19] user5555[4k]: @geo: in my games, things like that happen all the time... and often I know this can't be good, but I don't really know why. So this is just as important as the main line, to me at least.

Move 0 + 9

[14:19] user5555[4k]: shows you what a good shape looks like, and what a bad shape might look like..

[14:20] Burak23[4k]: what if white plays q13 instead of p14

[14:20] mark5000[7d]: Q13 would be a good move too

[14:20] mark5000[7d]: I don't have a refutation for that.

[14:20] user5555[4k]: @geo: also, it might be the other way around: YOU might be in a game where there is some great play elsewhere on the board...

[14:20] mark5000[7d]: You could call it joseki-ish

Move 0 + 10

[14:21] Аlрhа - 1 5 2[?]: Variation: How should B respond to this?

Move 0 + 8

[14:21] user5555[4k]: ... and then it is good to estimate how much better that has to be to compensate for the weakness you have to leave here...

Move 0 + 9

[14:21] jillgoodgal[9k]: so now white continues to move out, or slides along the top?

[14:21] mark5000[7d]: Yes.

Move 0 + 11

[14:22] user5555[4k]: that looks pretty good for B now, doesn't it?

Move 0 + 12

[14:22] Burak23[4k]: maybe depending on the board attacking m16 next ? since white build a wall like thing

[14:23] fishku[2d]: it's fine to look good for B, since B started with 2 stones and W with 1.

[14:23] mark5000[7d]: Yes, that's the purpose of this joseki.

[14:23] clackie[6k]: now it looks pretty good for w

[14:23] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: I'd say it's quite balanced.

[14:24] Wong Kar-Wai[6k]: Such a joseki gives white a good launching pad for reductions and middle influence.

[14:24] p6109[3k]: better to pincer than make a base? at say N17

[14:24] user5555[4k]: n17 is a big overconcentraded, no? white is not in trouble.

[14:25] p6109[3k]: ok

Move 0 + 3

[14:25] mark5000[7d]: So this joseki isn't that hard.

[14:26] mark5000[7d]: But actually it wasn't considered joseki until AlphaGo played it.

[14:26] mark5000[7d]: I want to show you why, if that's ok.

[14:26] user5555[4k]: please go on!

[14:26] mark5000[7d]: It's more of historical interest, but you can learn other moves in the process.

[14:26] p6109[3k]: of course

[14:26] Burak23[4k]: yes please

Move 0 + 6

[14:28] fishku[2d]: Can white also play m14? I thought I remember something like this. Maybe just for blitz :p

[14:28] mark5000[7d]: Yes, that would be acceptable departure from joseki

[14:28] mark5000[7d]: Don't let joseki study take away from your creativity!

[14:29] fishku[2d]: :)

Move 0 + 9

[14:29] geotheory[6k]: @<error> I tenuki frequently in first half of the game. Makes it harder for oppo to guess your strategy imo

Move 0 + 6

[14:29] mark5000[7d]: Still, it's helpful to know what the fair patterns are, so you can know when you're breaking them

Move 0 + 9

[14:29] geotheory[6k]: Not that I'm any kind of authority in this game..

Move 0 + 10

[14:30] user5555[4k]: @geo: exactly... me too. even more reason to know why the joseki wants another move here...

[14:30] mark5000[7d]: What do you think of this joseki?

[14:30] mark5000[7d]: Compared to the other joseki

[14:30] Burak23[4k]: i would prefer the other one

[14:30] user5555[4k]: I think it looks very complicated and I don't like that ;-)

[14:31] snakesss[4k]: white got one extra stone for safety when attacking blacks lonely stone

[14:31] mark5000[7d]: It is more complicated, if a little bit.

[14:31] snakesss[4k]: but black got 0 aji on the right

[14:31] user5555[4k]: I don't like white, but also not black...

[14:31] mark5000[7d]: Here's what the professionals thought.

[14:31] mark5000[7d]: Black is low on the right. Black occupies the third line.

Move 0 + 12

[14:32] mark5000[7d]: In this joseki, Black occupies the fourth line.

[14:32] user5555[4k]: 'xactly.

[14:32] mark5000[7d]: So why in the world would we EVER choose this joseki. We could make Black on the third line and settle for less.

[14:33] clackie[6k]: because the pincer stone is super weak and if black doesn't live it somehow white gets huge territory

[14:33] mark5000[7d]: That reasoning made this joseki rare among pros for a very long time.

[14:33] snakesss[4k]: but doesnt white have more eyespace and thickness now?

[14:33] mark5000[7d]: Yes and yes.

[14:33] mark5000[7d]: This pattern wasn't really "bad." It was considered slightly inferior.

[14:34] mark5000[7d]: Because professionals don't like giving opponents free points without significant cost.

[14:34] mark5000[7d]: Fast forward to the year 2016.

[14:34] mark5000[7d]: It is AlphaGo versus Lee Sedol 9p, game of the century already, and AlphaGo plays this as the first joseki is plays.

[14:35] mark5000[7d]: AlphaGo is White.

[14:35] mark5000[7d]: And AlphaGo attaches at R17.

[14:35] mark5000[7d]: I was watching the match live on my TV, streaming the broadcast from the internet, and Michael Redmond was commentating.

[14:36] mark5000[7d]: He and the Korean commentator mentioned how this joseki was surprising, and they played out the other one below.

[14:36] mark5000[7d]: They said how happy Black was to get the fourth line placement.

[14:36] mark5000[7d]: And then AlphaGo won.

[14:37] mark5000[7d]: Of course there's a lot of stuff in between, but I want to focus in on why AlphaGo might have chosen this joseki.

[14:37] snakesss[4k]: it knew it would win and wanted the extra benefit of puny humans thinking this joseki is good?

[14:37] mark5000[7d]: Hahaha

Move 0 + 4

[14:38] mark5000[7d]: We have other AlphaGo-style AI to help answer our question why AlphaGo might play this way

[14:38] mark5000[7d]: I studied this pattern and found something surprising.

Move 0 + 5

[14:38] mark5000[7d]: Attach here.

[14:39] mark5000[7d]: One thing AlphaGo taught professionals is that the corners are more valuable than previously thought.

[14:39] mark5000[7d]: This is part of the reason for early 3-3 invasion of a 4-4 point, for example.

[14:39] mark5000[7d]: So AlphaGo might play here.

Move 0 + 9

[14:40] mark5000[7d]: This joseki is normal. I taught it before.

[14:40] user5555[4k]: if the corners really are so valuable, why doesnt alphago play 3-4...?

[14:40] mark5000[7d]: I don't know.

[14:40] user5555[4k]: just a retoricval q really.

[14:40] mark5000[7d]: Fine Art just won the AI competition in China. Fine Art plays dual 3-4.

[14:40] mark5000[7d]: That question is beyond my level.

[14:41] user5555[4k]: interesting. never heard of that bot.

Move 0 + 13

[14:41] mark5000[7d]: You all know this joseki, correct?

Move 0 + 14

[14:41] user5555[4k]: yeas!

[14:41] Burak23[4k]: yes

[14:41] user5555[4k]: the only one we know!

[14:41] mark5000[7d]: This is the most basic joseki for the 3-4 point.

[14:41] mark5000[7d]: It was the first 3-4 joseki I learned.

[14:42] mark5000[7d]: And it's still joseki today.

[14:42] mark5000[7d]: Here's the professional thinking:

Move 0 + 13

[14:42] mark5000[7d]: Say White tenukies here.

Move 0 + 11

[14:42] mark5000[7d]: And now Black pincers.

Move 0 + 9

[14:43] mark5000[7d]: And now White jumps out with a one-space jump

[14:43] mark5000[7d]: We'd get the same pattern we started with

[14:43] mark5000[7d]: Who is this good for?

[14:43] user5555[4k]: b

[14:43] mark5000[7d]: It seems B, right?

[14:44] clackie[6k]: yes

[14:44] mark5000[7d]: To me, B is obviously better.

[14:44] mark5000[7d]: White should not play away, Black pincering is good, and White jumped too small.

[14:44] mark5000[7d]: Cue my surprise when I found a joseki resource that said this was good for White.

[14:45] user5555[4k]: no way

[14:45] clackie[6k]: attack

[14:45] user5555[4k]: says the 10kyu!

[14:45] snakesss[4k]: rofl

[14:45] mark5000[7d]: The stated reason was: Black is too close to White's thickness.

[14:45] snakesss[4k]: how could this be good for white?

[14:45] clackie[6k]: k16 it to death!

[14:45] mark5000[7d]: Oh boo. It's wrong. I'm sorry.

[14:45] user5555[4k]: see, told you so! :)

Move 0 + 8

[14:46] snakesss[4k]: Variation: shouldnt we play this then?

Move 0 + 9

[14:46] mark5000[7d]: Professionals were all misguided on this point.

[14:46] snakesss[4k]: oh then b wouldnt pincer

[14:46] snakesss[4k]: would keep taking the right

Move 0 + 5

[14:46] user5555[4k]: what's wrong mark??

[14:46] mark5000[7d]: In all of history from the invention of Go until 2016, professionals attached at P17 only 4 times.

[14:47] Nev77[3k]: Hi guys

[14:47] Nev77[3k]: Is there audio?

[14:47] snakesss[4k]: no

[14:47] user5555[4k]: that it's good for B or that it's good for W?

[14:47] mark5000[7d]: Text only

[14:47] Nev77[3k]: Ok

[14:47] mark5000[7d]: <error>: Pros didn't attach here because they thought it good for White.

[14:47] mark5000[7d]: We now know that's not the case

[14:47] user5555[4k]: wow.

[14:48] user5555[4k]: see.... should've listened to the 10kyu from the start!

[14:48] mark5000[7d]: They overlooked this move for centuries.

[14:48] mark5000[7d]: And undervalued the corners.

[14:48] Annoying orange[5k]: Hi

[14:48] mark5000[7d]: I don't mean to disparage professionals. They played according to their best understanding and were correct about a great number of things.

[14:48] mark5000[7d]: Their level exceeds my own.

[14:49] mark5000[7d]: They were just not correct about this one point.

Move 0 + 4

[14:49] user5555[4k]: i think we all understand that... it's easy now to be clever with alphago at hand...

[14:49] mark5000[7d]: Let's go back to this joseki

[14:49] snakesss[4k]: they played without komi for years

[14:49] snakesss[4k]: i am not surprised they missed this

[14:49] mark5000[7d]: AlphaGo attaches here because otherwise Black gains the corner territory

[14:49] mark5000[7d]: That's what it comes down to

[14:50] mark5000[7d]: I recommend this move in your games

[14:50] mark5000[7d]: If your opponent playing White plays P14, attach at P17.

Move 0 + 7

[14:50] mark5000[7d]: And enjoy your corner and pincer.

Move 0 + 12

[14:51] mark5000[7d]: I think you'll agree that this joseki isn't very hard. Try it out!

[14:52] mark5000[7d]: That's all I have prepared for today's lecture.

[14:52] p6109[3k]: thanks

[14:52] user5555[4k]: thx a lot

[14:52] user5555[4k]: gg

[14:52] user5555[4k]: ;)

[14:52] clackie[6k]: the attach at r17 still seems scary to me

[14:52] tmrbad[1d]: thank you mark5000

[14:52] mark5000[7d]: This lecture is part of my lecture series on becoming 9 kyu. Find past lectures here: becoming 9-kyu-a-series-for-beginners

[14:52] Fysh[6k]: very instructive - thanks !

[14:52] snakesss[4k]: that white dragon will die at the hands of ddks

[14:53] mark5000[7d]: Any questions?

[14:53] user5555[4k]: what if b cuts after r17?

[14:53] user5555[4k]: at q17

Move 0 + 5

[14:53] Burak23[4k]: Thanks for the lesson Mark

[14:53] user5555[4k]: yep

Move 0 + 6

[14:53] mark5000[7d]: How does Black continue?

[14:53] user5555[4k]: they< do this allthe time to me

[14:53] snakesss[4k]: q18?

[14:53] snakesss[4k]: extend weakest stone?

[14:53] mark5000[7d]: It's an overplay. Otherwise it would be joseki.

Move 0 + 8

[14:54] mark5000[7d]: White has to stay tough.

[14:54] snakesss[4k]: is it o17 now? cuz b still not safe

[14:54] snakesss[4k]: or just take lliberties?

[14:54] mark5000[7d]: There's a well-known tesuji here

[14:54] snakesss[4k]: in the corner? i dont think that works

[14:54] snakesss[4k]: s18=

[14:54] snakesss[4k]: what is it?

[14:54] mark5000[7d]: The dan players will see it.

Move 0 + 9

[14:55] user5555[4k]: some graveyard thing?

[14:55] mark5000[7d]: Tesuji.

[14:55] mark5000[7d]: Belly attachment

[14:55] snakesss[4k]: is DAN

[14:55] mark5000[7d]: senseis: BellyAttachmentTesuji

[14:55] user5555[4k]: but it thought its BAD for black?

[14:55] mark5000[7d]: Read about it ^^

[14:55] user5555[4k]: how is that bad?

Move 0 + 12

[14:56] mark5000[7d]: Because unfortunately the tesuji doesn't work.

[14:56] mark5000[7d]: :(

Move 0 + 9

[14:56] snakesss[4k]: btw mark, is there a bug with sync?

Move 0 + 12

[14:56] user5555[4k]: hehe

[14:56] mark5000[7d]: White simply ataries and connects.

Move 0 + 8

[14:56] snakesss[4k]: i go out of sync

Move 0 + 9

[14:56] user5555[4k]: so its more of a badsuji

Move 0 + 11

[14:57] mark5000[7d]: Black needs an extra stone, typically

[14:57] mark5000[7d]: Then this tesuji is soo good

Move 0 + 13

[14:57] mark5000[7d]: Anyway, Black plays here

[14:57] mark5000[7d]: The exchange is still useful

[14:57] mark5000[7d]: Now WHite's turn for tesuji

[14:58] mark5000[7d]: Anyone see the tesuji here?

[14:58] tmrbad[1d]: r14 ?

Move 0 + 14

[14:58] mark5000[7d]: Nose hit

Move 0 + 18

[14:59] mark5000[7d]: After all this, White is better

[14:59] user5555[4k]: that is good for w?

[14:59] snakesss[4k]: black was gonna net those 2 but if white just escapes then w got a weak group

Move 0 + 19

[15:00] snakesss[4k]: so instead of netting, w uses those 2 stones as a sacrifice to get the right?

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: In gote

[15:00] snakesss[4k]: inread of escaping the net*

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: Look how over-concentrated Black is!

[15:00] snakesss[4k]: instead*

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: So many stones in such a small area.

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: Black is horrible

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: horrorible

[15:00] user5555[4k]: yes but W as just as many stones here...

[15:00] snakesss[4k]: white isnt that great either imo

[15:00] tmrbad[1d]: thank you

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: And the two white stones have aji

[15:00] user5555[4k]: and only a few pts

[15:00] snakesss[4k]: b got thickness and the upper side

[15:00] mark5000[7d]: Hmm

[15:01] snakesss[4k]: i like black tbh :S

Move 0 + 9

[15:01] user5555[4k]: I'm sure you're right, but I don't see it...

[15:01] mark5000[7d]: Honestly your opponents will never play here will they

[15:01] snakesss[4k]: hahahaa

Move 0 + 9

[15:01] mark5000[7d]: They're cowards and so will play here

Move 0 + 10

[15:01] user5555[4k]: hehe

Move 0 + 12

[15:01] snakesss[4k]: hey, that was my first choice :P

[15:01] mark5000[7d]: Then you kill them to death

[15:01] mark5000[7d]: There. White is better

[15:02] snakesss[4k]: ez pz

[15:02] mark5000[7d]: The badsuji is still a goodsuji

[15:02] snakesss[4k]: iif you can follow it up with more goodsujis

Move 0 + 7

[15:03] mark5000[7d]: Black can also resist here

Move 0 + 8

[15:03] snakesss[4k]: does anyone go out of sync without clicking anything?

Move 0 + 9

[15:03] user5555[4k]: yep

Move 0 + 15

[15:04] mark5000[7d]: Probably Black should confine White to the corner.

Move 0 + 8

[15:04] user5555[4k]: still looks pretty good for B?

Move 0 + 15

[15:04] user5555[4k]: so q17 doesnt look that bad after all...?!

[15:04] snakesss[4k]: i like white

[15:05] user5555[4k]: i'm not sure

[15:05] snakesss[4k]: b got one weak group and weakish group

[15:05] user5555[4k]: b has 4th line terr on top

Move 0 + 16

[15:05] user5555[4k]: white only small corner

Move 0 + 18

[15:05] mark5000[7d]: Do you still like Black?

[15:05] user5555[4k]: both have a weak fgroup

[15:06] user5555[4k]: well b q15...

[15:06] Burak23[4k]: looks bad somehow

[15:06] snakesss[4k]: if they continue this, it seems to me like b could get 2 sides

[15:06] user5555[4k]: then r14 or something

Move 0 + 19

[15:06] pipelord11[4k]: black is too ackward to play r14lol

Move 0 + 18

[15:06] snakesss[4k]: but white will be thick and safe in the middle

[15:06] snakesss[4k]: so from now on, everywhere else, white can go for territory, feeling safe to have destroyed chances of a moyo

[15:06] user5555[4k]: I'd say white has a floating group in the middle that doesn't do much...

[15:06] user5555[4k]: except run

Move 0 + 23

[15:07] user5555[4k]: r13

[15:07] user5555[4k]: no

[15:07] snakesss[4k]: a weak group cutting 2 weak groups is not a weak group

[15:07] user5555[4k]: that's awful

Move 0 + 21

[15:07] pipelord11[4k]: This group will generate large sums of influence...

Move 0 + 21

[15:07] mark5000[7d]: Here?

[15:07] user5555[4k]: or bewtter q14

[15:07] user5555[4k]: maybe

[15:07] user5555[4k]: i think q14

Move 0 + 21

[15:07] user5555[4k]: yes

[15:07] mark5000[7d]: I agree with Q14 here

[15:07] user5555[4k]: looks better

[15:08] mark5000[7d]: Anyone seen my destroying shape lecture?

[15:08] user5555[4k]: now white has a runner in the middle

[15:08] snakesss[4k]: s14

[15:08] snakesss[4k]: right away?

[15:08] mark5000[7d]: Where does White play immediately?

[15:08] snakesss[4k]: white got 4 liberties in the middle

[15:08] user5555[4k]: well s14 now

[15:08] mark5000[7d]: snakesss watched it

[15:08] user5555[4k]: but still

Move 0 + 22

[15:08] pipelord11[4k]: s14

[15:08] mark5000[7d]: Everyone is a shape expert

[15:08] snakesss[4k]: lol

[15:09] mark5000[7d]: It's easy to harass Black

Move 0 + 19

[15:09] pipelord11[4k]: instead of hane Q15 can it be start from Q14 ?

Move 0 + 18

[15:09] mark5000[7d]: Yes, better

Move 0 + 19

[15:09] mark5000[7d]: My personal opinion is here.

[15:09] mark5000[7d]: Q14 is similar

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: when you play this, do you think "i dont mind sacrificing r16 stones"?

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: or will they live for sure?

[15:10] Burak23[4k]: they are alive

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: they can be

[15:10] user5555[4k]: they are cutting stones so they are important...

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: but i am asking if it is in some way more profitable to sac them

[15:10] user5555[4k]: not just crapstones

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: oooh

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: right right

[15:10] snakesss[4k]: good point

[15:10] user5555[4k]: thanks :)

[15:11] mark5000[7d]: snakesss: maybe rewatch my pivotal vs. useless stones lecture?

[15:11] user5555[4k]: well... I can only say I still like blank here

[15:11] mark5000[7d]: It's fine.

[15:11] mark5000[7d]: Please try it out in your games.

[15:11] user5555[4k]: but white q14 looks good

[15:11] mark5000[7d]: Yeah

Move 0 + 14

[15:11] user5555[4k]: yes of course

Move 0 + 5

[15:12] mark5000[7d]: Maybe this is your secret dagger, a trick your oppoennts will always botch

[15:12] user5555[4k]: thanks for the extensive answer though

[15:12] user5555[4k]: it's not that easy

[15:12] user5555[4k]: even if the cut is not correct...

[15:12] mark5000[7d]: As I said, departing from joseki can be good. Stay creative. Know joseki so you know when you're breaking it.

[15:13] mark5000[7d]: Know the rules to break them.

[15:13] mark5000[7d]: In this case the rule is S17 hane.

[15:13] mark5000[7d]: Any other questions?

Move 0 + 3

[15:14] user5555[4k]: thanks

[15:14] Burak23[4k]: Thanks

[15:14] ErikBolding[8k]: Thanks

[15:14] mark5000[7d]: Cheers everyone. See you next week around about the same time.

[15:14] ppn0405[5k]: Thanks

[15:14] tmrbad[1d]: thank you

[15:15] snakesss[4k]: ty o/