Becoming 9 kyu - Lesson 11

Move 29

Black[2d]

0 captures

White[2d]

0 captures

+ 6.5

Unranked

Rules: Japanese

Review by: ...

Move 0 + 29

June 2, 2019

[15:24] mark5000[8d]: Hello everyone. This is a text-based lecture about what to do and no to do in the opening.

[15:24] mark5000[8d]: There's no audio or anything, so if you're here, you're good. :)

[15:25] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: nice

[15:26] Cactus Juice[4k]: Buyt are we really here?

[15:26] Xv8[?]: Is Plato still stuck in his cave?

[15:26] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: lets not get metaphysical cactus

[15:27] mark5000[8d]: I can fix your Go. I can't fix your existential crisis.

[15:27] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: lol

[15:27] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: please fix my go

[15:27] adamomo[10k]: lol

[15:27] Xv8[?]: My Go has yet to work at all, let alone need fixing

[15:28] spiritstar42[12k]: my existential crises needs fixing but if you can't ill settle for my go

Move 0 + 22

[15:28] snakesss[6k]: fixing people's existential crisis would be an easier promise imo

Move 0 + 29

[15:28] Napster[5k]: I agree with cacti

Move 0 + 31

[15:31] akr[8k]: too slow

[15:31] chess_player[4k]: Black probably gained 3-4 points here

[15:31] Executive Calamari[13k]: Not gaining enough

[15:32] chess_player[4k]: But he could have made bigger play in the top right

[15:32] mayomoyo[5k]: Top right or extending to bottom right seems bigger

[15:32] Metropolis[5k]: B's group cant' die, and can't kill w, so the 2nd line move isn't threatening anything.

Move 0 + 32

[15:33] snakesss[6k]: Friendly SYNC reminder, if the moves don't make sense with the text, try hitting the sync button.

[15:33] mark5000[8d]: Thanks.

[15:34] chess_player[4k]: If I was white, I would have played P17

[15:34] chess_player[4k]: Or may be 017

[15:34] mark5000[8d]: Good thought

[15:34] snakesss[6k]: black can do that as well

[15:34] snakesss[6k]: perhaps m3 is an option

Move 0 + 33

[15:35] Cactus Juice[4k]: Variation: here

Move 0 + 32

[15:35] chess_player[4k]: Is m3 a good option?

[15:35] mark5000[8d]: Good, so all of you are as better than 9 kyu players :)

Move 0 + 36

[15:37] p6109[5k]: how about c3

[15:37] mark5000[8d]: c3 was the game move and it was actually ok.

[15:37] p6109[5k]: thx

[15:37] mark5000[8d]: around q2 and p17 were bigger.

[15:37] chess_player[4k]: Can you please suggest how much point is playing L3 worth?

[15:38] chess_player[4k]: As in, c3 probably was worth 8 points? Am I right?

[15:38] chess_player[4k]: Or is this a bad question?

[15:39] Metropolis[5k]: The w group can be badly attacked without l3

[15:39] snakesss[6k]: if black has l3 instead of white on this board, i think white is dead, so l3 is worth the entire bottom

[15:39] mark5000[8d]: I think in the opening it's not a good question for most players to be asking. It's not because this information isn't useful, but if you're a DDK player, painting in broad strokes is more important.

Move 0 + 37

[15:40] Cactus Juice[4k]: Variation: mark, is this ok too?

Move 0 + 36

[15:40] mark5000[8d]: If you're liable to follow your opponent around the board and make endgame plays without thinking, it's of no consequence that you can count point values precisely.

[15:40] mark5000[8d]: Yes, that's fine too.

[15:40] mayomoyo[5k]: Can L3 be played before Q2? If black secures the corner, can't white make a base on the other side, with J2, for example?

[15:40] chess_player[4k]: Hmm

[15:41] Kryswilx[?]: i see this borad bad for white

Move 0 + 37

[15:41] chess_player[4k]: Not precisely, but I usually think if l3 is worth more points, lets play it there

[15:41] mark5000[8d]: I would play around here though.

[15:42] mark5000[8d]: It's good to surround things, since Go is literally the surrounding game.

Move 0 + 39

[15:42] mark5000[8d]: Also this.

Move 0 + 36

[15:42] mark5000[8d]: Let's move on.

Move 0 + 33

[15:43] chess_player[4k]: Nice

Move 0 + 28

[15:44] snakesss[6k]: o9?

[15:44] mayomoyo[5k]: F3?

[15:44] mayomoyo[5k]: F3 is biggest move but not most urgent, I mean

Move 0 + 31

[15:45] Cactus Juice[4k]: Variation: this for surrounding?

Move 0 + 28

[15:45] mark5000[8d]: Good clarification

Move 0 + 32

[15:45] Undercover2019[10k]: 017

Move 0 + 28

[15:45] ZedSG[6k]: I like cactus' variation

[15:45] mark5000[8d]: Cactus Juice, White surely won't play move 2, will she?

[15:45] ZedSG[6k]: I mean, us ddk would

Move 0 + 29

[15:46] mark5000[8d]: If this,

Move 0 + 30

[15:46] Cactus Juice[4k]: :O why not? doesn't it keep eyeshape?

Move 0 + 30

[15:46] Kryswilx[?]: n7

[15:46] mark5000[8d]: I jump out.

[15:46] Cactus Juice[4k]: ooh, cool

Move 0 + 28

[15:46] Decros[2d]: hello, wat's this?

Move 0 + 29

[15:47] snakesss[6k]: hi, demo board text lecture by 5dan

[15:47] snakesss[6k]: about opening

[15:48] mark5000[8d]: Would you all answer this atari?

[15:48] Cactus Juice[4k]: I wouldn't, feels small

[15:48] snakesss[6k]: ^^

[15:48] Decros[2d]: nope

[15:48] ZedSG[6k]: not that small to me, black can follow with k17 or k18

[15:49] Undercover2019[10k]: jump 07

[15:49] chess_player[4k]: Yes

[15:49] mark5000[8d]: Would you allow Black a flower (ponnuki)?

[15:49] snakesss[6k]: i might cuz of k16

Move 0 + 30

[15:50] chess_player[4k]: I would want to do that because the group in the top right mid is actually very weak

[15:50] snakesss[6k]: cool

Move 0 + 35

[15:50] Cactus Juice[4k]: I don't see the ponnuki here as a problem for W, beucase the right side goroup is not weak itself, b will only get 2 points and there are bigger stuff

[15:50] snakesss[6k]: that's how "ponnuki is worth 30 points" works then xD

Move 0 + 33

[15:51] Cactus Juice[4k]: oh interesting, but doesn't the double hane work for white here?

Move 0 + 35

[15:51] mark5000[8d]: Ah, maybe. It's a close call to my eyes.

Move 0 + 37

[15:52] mark5000[8d]: Similar when you double hane

[15:52] Decros[2d]: even worse for the top group

Move 0 + 37

[15:54] chess_player[4k]: No

[15:54] p6109[5k]: no

[15:54] Soineanta[?]: I don't think so.

[15:54] chess_player[4k]: It would still leave the white group in the mid center in danger

[15:54] ZedSG[6k]: no, that top group looks like it needs some help

[15:55] mark5000[8d]: You all are too good.

Move 0 + 38

[15:55] Xv8[?]: Or all the bad players are keeping quiet

[15:55] chess_player[4k]: (I don't manage to think all that in the game)

Move 0 + 41

[15:55] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: i am not keeping quiet

Move 0 + 42

[15:56] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: its just I am having dinner

[15:57] chess_player[4k]: Still in the fight, so black should respond

[15:57] Cactus Juice[4k]: mark, why did white attach q17 instead of slide?

[15:57] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: Q18

[15:57] p6109[5k]: I would have finished L18

[15:57] snakesss[6k]: white had one weak group that needed help

[15:57] mark5000[8d]: White attached at q17 instead of sliding to keep sente.

[15:57] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: or C3

Move 0 + 39

[15:57] 杯酒释兵权[7d]: instead of p16, i felt like r18 is better

Move 0 + 42

[15:57] mayomoyo[5k]: I was also thinking L18

Move 0 + 39

[15:57] mark5000[8d]: White didn't want this.

[15:57] Cactus Juice[4k]: ah, makes sense, thanks :D

Move 0 + 40

[15:58] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: ah - its whites move

[15:58] mark5000[8d]: MoI think this could be better, too. It suits my modern eyes.

[15:58] mark5000[8d]: I think*

[15:58] Cactus Juice[4k]: L!8 just lives somewhat peacefully, doesn't strike me as white's goal here

[15:58] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: if it was black then Q3 would be big

Move 0 + 42

[15:58] Cactus Juice[4k]: l18*

Move 0 + 43

[15:59] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: yeah Q18

[15:59] mark5000[8d]: Right, it's a bit peaceful for this board.

[15:59] mark5000[8d]: Cutting here was important, since it cracks open White's left side like an egg

Move 0 + 43

[16:00] mark5000[8d]: Same with this.

[16:00] mark5000[8d]: No matter what White does, besides cutting, Black will fix the cutting point.

[16:00] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: you asume a aspiring 9k would do that?

[16:00] mark5000[8d]: Six liberties may seem like a lot, but you'll have to watch that left white group.

[16:01] Cactus Juice[4k]: well, answering the question on the cut there, i think white has too much to worry about, but if well played can build a big left

Move 0 + 42

[16:01] snakesss[6k]: so, white has to cut? so black cant fix?

[16:01] Cactus Juice[4k]: snakesss: yeah, fixing there is huge for black, works well with botom and right :/

[16:01] mark5000[8d]: Correct.

[16:02] mark5000[8d]: This is secondary to my lesson though.

[16:02] mark5000[8d]: This part of the lesson is that White should not tenuki the first move.

[16:02] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: I would have made that mistake I think

[16:03] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: cause i am bad

[16:03] mark5000[8d]: It's suspiciously easy to fall into this trap.

[16:03] snakesss[6k]: which mistake? i would have done most of these mistakes in the 2nd rule part

[16:03] mark5000[8d]: When it's highlighted as a Go problem, like here, it's easy for everyone to see it.

[16:04] mark5000[8d]: But when you put it in your own games, suddenly you lose all good sense and start making these mistakes you know you shouldn't make.

[16:04] mark5000[8d]: That's why it's important to talk about it so much that it becomes second nature.

[16:04] chess_player[4k]: So, how long do we keep this fight so that it doesn't contradict the first rule?

[16:04] mark5000[8d]: If it's second nature, you'll do it in your games by instinct, and you improve your Go skill.

[16:05] mark5000[8d]: Good question.

[16:05] mark5000[8d]: If a battle for the health and security of groups is underway, don't tenuki, per rule 2.

[16:06] mark5000[8d]: If the battle is no longer underway, or if the battle no longer concerns the health and security of groups, but only points, then rule 1 applies.

[16:06] snakesss[6k]: but first ponnuki was just one stone and good shape - no security of groups endangered

[16:06] mark5000[8d]: It did endanger the upper right white stones, if you recall.

[16:07] snakesss[6k]: ok

Move 0 + 37

[16:07] mark5000[8d]: White already had a second group that's not 100% secure, so extra fighting like this isn't what White wants.

[16:08] mark5000[8d]: But it's possible. I'm not saying this way is terrible. Actually, AI thinks it's about even with the pro continuation.

Move 0 + 40

[16:10] tpnZbonek[5k]: becouse its confident enough to kill 3 black stones..

Move 0 + 42

[16:10] chess_player[4k]: Which three black stones?

Move 0 + 40

[16:11] mark5000[8d]: That's all I had prepared for today.

[16:11] p6109[5k]: thanks a lot

[16:11] tpnZbonek[5k]: thank you for the lesson

[16:11] mark5000[8d]: I'll answer any further questions you may have.

[16:11] ZedSG[6k]: thank you for teaching us!

[16:11] mayomoyo[5k]: Thank you very much for the lesson.

[16:12] tpnZbonek[5k]: i wanted to ask, you do lessons in the same time?

[16:12] tpnZbonek[5k]: i catched it luckily for 2. time

[16:12] chess_player[4k]: Thank you so much mark5000, for this and for the puzzles in the puzzles sections as well, they have contributed a lot to whatever skill I have

[16:12] Cactus Juice[4k]: oh, the ai play is pretty cool

[16:12] mark5000[8d]: I don't have a schedule, unfortunately. I just do them on Sundays when I find time.

[16:12] tpnZbonek[5k]: ok thanks for the lesson

[16:13] mark5000[8d]: This is the earliest I would do one. Sometimes I do one a bit later.

[16:13] mark5000[8d]: Any questions about the opening?

[16:13] chess_player[4k]: Can you please play this situation down to when the F3 is decided

[16:13] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: intresting that ai plays on 6th line

[16:13] p6109[5k]: how would you start attacking the white group with six liberties? E11 maybe

[16:13] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: humans might discount it

[16:14] chess_player[4k]: As in, was it a matter of keeping sente or is somebody reading ahead enough to know that either black or white know they will get the F3

[16:14] mark5000[8d]: Unfortunately, f3 was never decided in the actual game. Fighting continued for the rest of the game.

[16:14] Cactus Juice[4k]: Shakes Fish At Sky: yeah, but pretty cool move, kinda encloses the two stones, preserves corner aji and goes to the center

[16:15] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: yeah - all is obvious in hindsight

Move 0 + 37

[16:15] snakesss[6k]: so, after that ponnuki, there are a few moves played

[16:15] snakesss[6k]: h15 and j15 are what rly put white in danger

[16:15] snakesss[6k]: those moves are a must for white to build a large left?

[16:15] snakesss[6k]: and surround black?

Move 0 + 44

[16:16] mark5000[8d]: p6109, I'd think about A B or C

[16:16] p6109[5k]: thx

[16:16] p6109[5k]: E11 is too high

[16:16] snakesss[6k]: even if it puts white stones in danger?

[16:17] Alma Pacifica[7k]: is for academy alma pacifica is ?

Move 0 + 46

[16:17] mark5000[8d]: It's a bit hard to continue here.

[16:17] p6109[5k]: thx

Move 0 + 50

[16:18] mark5000[8d]: Like this, and you're not attacking.

Move 0 + 47

[16:18] Cactus Juice[4k]: i think that for that wall to die only if white lets it die

Move 0 + 49

[16:18] snakesss[6k]: was that last one bad for black considering the board?

[16:18] mark5000[8d]: This could be better, but I'm not sure Black is strong enough.

[16:18] snakesss[6k]: there is a white group on the right

[16:18] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: e13?

Move 0 + 52

[16:19] mark5000[8d]: Probably this

Move 0 + 52

[16:19] mark5000[8d]: Or here

Move 0 + 54

[16:20] Cactus Juice[4k]: Variation: white can just connect, no?

Move 0 + 55

[16:21] Cactus Juice[4k]: yeah, it's a big profit :s

Move 0 + 47

[16:22] mark5000[8d]: Compare to something like this, which I like a bit more.

Move 0 + 45

[16:22] Cactus Juice[4k]: this is over my ddk head xD

[16:22] mark5000[8d]: Or this attachment, which forces local moves that have to coordinate with the upper group AND keep Black out of the left side.

[16:23] mark5000[8d]: XD

[16:23] mark5000[8d]: That's why it's not part of the DDK lecture.

[16:23] chess_player[4k]: :)

[16:23] mark5000[8d]: The important part was the two opening rules.

[16:24] mark5000[8d]: Your opponents will not follow them, and it's a chance to seize control of the game each time it happens.

[16:24] snakesss[6k]: it is still a situational judgement call

[16:24] snakesss[6k]: that ponnuki thing is a little vague for me :S

[16:25] Alma Pacifica[7k]: im DDK

[16:25] Alma Pacifica[7k]: thx for lecture

[16:25] snakesss[6k]: maybe including when to ignore a sitation that looks fighty would have clarified it

[16:25] mark5000[8d]: It's ok. It's enough to consider a ponnuki valuable and deny it to your opponent when possible, regardless of the situation.

[16:25] snakesss[6k]: ok

[16:26] p6109[5k]: It is harder to use a wall than its is to use a ponnuki for me...

[16:26] mark5000[8d]: The right side is a good example of that, actually.

[16:26] mark5000[8d]: The three WHite stones look to be in danger, but actually they have miai to move out or settle.

[16:26] mark5000[8d]: So it's stable, ok to leave.

[16:27] mark5000[8d]: Part of the balance of Go is between taking big moves and attacking weaknesses.

[16:27] mark5000[8d]: Sometimes, you want to ignore a big play and attack in hopes of profiting more than the big play would profit you.

[16:28] mark5000[8d]: On the other hand, sometimes you really do want the big play.

[16:28] mark5000[8d]: In such cases, you should mind your weak group only as long as you have to.

[16:28] mark5000[8d]: The right side is an example. White left to take a big point because the group was stable, for now.

[16:29] mark5000[8d]: Play in one area as much as necessary and no more.

[16:30] mark5000[8d]: That flows into rule 1: don't play endgame moves in the opening. Endgame moves are moves that take only points

[16:30] mark5000[8d]: I hope that's clear as mud now...

[16:30] p6109[5k]: :-)

[16:31] mark5000[8d]: Next lecture topic is: how to destroy enemy shapes.

[16:32] mark5000[8d]: See you all next time!

[16:32] p6109[5k]: See you,

[16:33] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: thx mark5000

[16:34] Shakes Fish At Sky[3k]: Its not exactly obvious but seeing though mud is what go is all about

Move 0 + 29

[16:36] Sukkubix[8k]: Thank you for the lecture :)