Game Finished

Move 271

yclin228[2d]

5 captures

sasagawa[3d]

3 captures

+ 6.5

Ranked

Rules: Japanese

W+0.4

K17M7S8C15B12T1

Win %

Score

White wins by Resignation

Move 1

July 28, 2020

[12:46] sasagawa[4d]: Hi.

Move 3

[13:57] yclin228[3d]: Hello

Move 271

August 12, 2020

[8:17] sasagawa[4d]: is it a seki right down?

[8:18] yclin228[3d]: What do you mean?

[8:21] sasagawa[4d]: you can't kill the fivestones.

[8:21] yclin228[3d]: yes

[8:21] sasagawa[4d]: it's called Seki.

[8:22] yclin228[3d]: both alive

[8:23] sasagawa[4d]: so it's no account ,i think.

[8:24] yclin228[3d]: I am not sure

[8:24] sasagawa[4d]: is it a Japanese rule?

[8:24] yclin228[3d]: Should we call referee?

[8:25] sasagawa[4d]: OK.

[8:26] yclin228[3d]: OK! We wait ......

[8:28] sasagawa[4d]: i don't know how to call referee.

[8:29] sasagawa[4d]: you know how?

[8:31] Eugene[6k]: Wow - this is a very close game

[8:32] yclin228[3d]: Are you the referee ?

[8:32] Eugene[6k]: Yes

[8:32] Eugene[6k]: Under Japanese rules the eye inside a seki is not a point

[8:32] yclin228[3d]: OK

[8:33] Eugene[6k]: The bottom right appears to be seki to me

[8:33] yclin228[3d]: Yes

[8:33] Eugene[6k]: So if it truly is seki (I will make sure shortly) then black wins (even if white gets that point, black appears to still be up 0.5)

[8:34] yclin228[3d]: Really? Thanks a lot!

[8:38] Eugene[6k]: Yes - I asked katago. It agrees :)

[8:39] sasagawa[4d]: if it's seki , white is 0.5 up, isn't it?

[8:40] Eugene[6k]: Hmm - let me recheck

[8:47] Eugene[6k]: Variation: Black appears to have 51 points plus 1 capture on the board

[8:47] Eugene[6k]: Variation: White appears to have 46 points on the board

[8:47] yclin228[3d]: Variation: 52

[8:48] Eugene[6k]: Black score = 51 points plus 5 captures plus one prisoner on the board = 57

[8:48] Eugene[6k]: White score = 46 points plus 6.5 komi plus 3 captures = 55.5

[8:48] Eugene[6k]: (T1 is not a point for white under Japanese)

[8:52] yclin228[3d]: Under Japanese rules the eye inside a seki is not a point

[8:52] sasagawa[4d]: white score 51plus 9.5. black score 50 plus 5, right?

[8:54] Eugene[6k]: Where do you get 51 for white from? I counted 46 points on the board, can you see that variation with the count?

[8:55] Eugene[6k]: FYI Katago also thinks that black wins, which is usually a very strong sign: https://pasteboard.co/JlZYsox.png

[9:01] sasagawa[4d]: we shoud'nt account 50,51 in 変化図 with bloth.

[9:07] sasagawa[4d]: i recheck with your 変化図. so black score 49 plus 5=54. white score 46 plus 9.5=55.5.

[9:13] Eugene[6k]: Oh - interesting, I see what you mean about 50 and 51.

[9:13] Eugene[6k]: I need to get a more experienced moderator to decide about that: I will d othat

[9:23] sasagawa[4d]: sorry i made a mistake . black score=50 plus 5=55.

[9:24] sasagawa[4d]: white wins 0.5 in Japanese rule isn't it?

[9:32] yclin228[3d]: Sorry, I don't really understand Japanese rules, probably you are right.

[9:37] sasagawa[4d]: 変化図＝variation. bloth is a spellingmiss," both" i mean.

[9:39] sasagawa[4d]: i just know the right judgement.

[9:42] sasagawa[4d]: sorry, i just want to know, i mean.

[9:48] Vsotvep[1k]: Hi, another mod here

[9:48] Vsotvep[1k]: I count 49 territory for black, 1 capture on the board and 5 captures in 'the bowl' so to say, so 55 points.

[9:49] Vsotvep[1k]: And for white I count 46 territory, 3 captures 'in the bowl' and 6.5 komi, so 55.5 points

[9:50] Vsotvep[1k]: Variation: black count

[9:50] Vsotvep[1k]: Variation: white count

[9:51] Vsotvep[1k]: S5 Q3 and T1 are not worth any points, since the surrounding stones are in seki.

[9:57] Vsotvep[1k]: Technically under Japanese rules, the dame need to be filled if possible before the scoring phase.

[9:58] Vsotvep[1k]: In scoring, any group that touches a dame point is considered seki.

[10:41] yclin228[3d]: Thanks a lot!

[10:47] Vsotvep[1k]: It retrospect, it seems the rules are ambiguous on this, actually... "group" is not defined in the rules, so it's unclear if the R4 stones are the same group as the Q2 stones

[13:06] sasagawa[4d]: Hi. I completely agree with Vsotvep's fugures. Thanks for the words.

[13:30] yebellz[2k]: I'm not sure how the Japanese rules precisely apply here. It's unclear to me whether the stone surrounding S5 "possess dame" and should also be considered "in seki"

[15:35] hexahedron[7d]: I think the intent of the japanese rules, if you were to ask any pro, would be that the lower right is all seki and there are no points for either side there.

[15:37] hexahedron[7d]: And as is typical for the asian rulesets, the consensus intent and agreed tradition are what matter, regardless of the details of the wording of the rules (which obviously are very poor)

[15:37] hexahedron[7d]: The writing of the rules is an afterthought.

[15:44] hexahedron[7d]: Fascinatingly, game move 266 appears to lose white 1 point under japanese rules.

[15:45] hexahedron[7d]: White never needs to throw in at B, even now.

[15:45] hexahedron[7d]: Variation: in this variation

[15:45] hexahedron[7d]: Because if black plays A, then we get this trade

[15:46] hexahedron[7d]: Variation: trade

[15:46] hexahedron[7d]: Where white gains more than black.

[15:47] hexahedron[7d]: Variation: So the lower right is just a seki even without white's throw-in. None of the marked points are territory.

[23:39] Eugene[6k]: By the way, hexahedron pointed out to me that katago in Lizzie can't be used to directly test outcomes that depend on rule interpretations because Lizzie always calls Kata with Tromp-Taylor rules.