alpha demo

Move 176

Black[8d]

4 captures

White[8d]

6 captures

+ 6.5

Unranked

Rules: Japanese

Review by: ...

Move 0

March 12, 2016

[8:31] samuel_god[9k]: We just lost like 3000 people

[8:32] Pempu[2d]: samuel_god: it was bugged. the relay had around 450 observers.

[8:32] kingkimchi[3d]: give me 2 mins

Move 0 + 9

[8:34] samuel_god[9k]: What is the high chinese about?

Move 0 + 14

[8:35] kingkimchi[3d]: oh yeah, so theres a classic opening called chinese opening

Move 0 + 4

[8:35] samuel_god[9k]: I know the chinese

Move 0 + 5

[8:35] samuel_god[9k]: I play it a lot

[8:35] kingkimchi[3d]: this is the high chinese

Move 0 + 5

[8:35] samuel_god[9k]: What's the deal with playing a line higher

[8:35] kingkimchi[3d]: so the stone is on 4th line instead of third

[8:36] samuel_god[9k]: Well yes

[8:36] kingkimchi[3d]: generally speaking, stones on third line is more territory driven

[8:36] samuel_god[9k]: But the chinese is already very moyo oriented, no?

[8:36] kingkimchi[3d]: whereas stone on fourth like high chinese is better for early skirmishes

[8:36] samuel_god[9k]: So it invites fighting instead of moyo building?

[8:36] samuel_god[9k]: Because the moyo is SO extreme?

[8:37] kingkimchi[3d]: tbh i dont play chinese opening alot, i dont like it

Move 0 + 8

[8:37] kingkimchi[3d]: so like something like this very easily limits blacks ability

[8:38] kingkimchi[3d]: generally black wants a big group early, because komi is so hard

[8:38] kingkimchi[3d]: anyways get back to the game

[8:38] samuel_god[9k]: Ok

Move 0 + 14

[8:38] samuel_god[9k]: Thanks

Move 0 + 29

[8:39] kingkimchi[3d]: someone said they had question about move 29?

Move 0 + 38

[8:40] RobertT[5d]: k12 is one of Lee Sedols only major mistakes this game

Move 0 + 39

[8:40] samuel_god[9k]: Why did he play it?

[8:40] samuel_god[9k]: And what should he have done?

Move 0 + 31

[8:40] Baran[3k]: should he have simply played on the left side? Why did he play K12, did he not expect C11 ?

Move 0 + 39

[8:40] kingkimchi[3d]: yeah, his playing style has never been a strong early game, its his mid-late game ability that won him so many titles

Move 0 + 32

[8:41] RobertT[5d]: k12 is to set up for an attack on r15 stone but right now it is bigger to defend the left

[8:41] RobertT[5d]: r14*

Move 0 + 33

[8:42] samuel_god[9k]: And because of O17, jump into the corner would be terrible there, right?

[8:42] kingkimchi[3d]: i dont think he expected c11, perhaps c12

Move 0 + 39

[8:42] samuel_god[9k]: After that pinsier?

Move 0 + 60

[8:44] kingkimchi[3d]: any questions at this point?

[8:45] samuel_god[9k]: Is anyone winning?

[8:45] samuel_god[9k]: Do you have anything to note about the moves thus far?

[8:45] kingkimchi[3d]: defintely white

Move 0 + 32

[8:45] Baran[3k]: yes why

Move 0 + 36

[8:45] kingkimchi[3d]: ok so you have to look at the very beginning

Move 0 + 14

[8:46] Baran[3k]: did black not simply give up E14 group ? it seemed to end just as a dumpling, black still got corner and half of top side, wouldnt it have been possible?

Move 0 + 11

[8:46] kingkimchi[3d]: ill get to that in a sec, let me say why white is winning

[8:46] kingkimchi[3d]: here you see black has 4 stones on left side

[8:47] kingkimchi[3d]: by move 60ish count how many territory those 4 stones managed

Move 0 + 60

[8:47] samuel_god[9k]: And they're not giving black much influence or anything either, right?

[8:47] kingkimchi[3d]: yep, b thickness on right side has almost no impact

[8:48] kingkimchi[3d]: white has komi, so theres alot of pressure on b

[8:48] samuel_god[9k]: Do pros tend to prefer either black or white?

Move 0 + 32

[8:48] kingkimchi[3d]: pros right now prefer white

[8:49] kingkimchi[3d]: in general, they say its easier

[8:49] kingkimchi[3d]: i think lee may have expected c12, then black can let go of the three stones

Move 0 + 33

[8:49] kingkimchi[3d]: attack 414 like robert said

[8:49] kingkimchi[3d]: r14

[8:49] kingkimchi[3d]: or go E6

[8:50] kingkimchi[3d]: but because the white stone is c11

Move 0 + 34

[8:50] kingkimchi[3d]: big difference here

[8:51] kingkimchi[3d]: does that answer your question why lee couldnt give up the 3 stones there

Move 0 + 72

[8:55] kingkimchi[3d]: the bottom left corner was very bad for lee, but he kinda had to to protect the ko

Move 0 + 76

[8:55] kingkimchi[3d]: basically after 76, bottom is all white territory

Move 0 + 78

[8:56] kingkimchi[3d]: theres a ko here. the two extra stones in the corner helps in this event

Move 0 + 77

[8:57] kingkimchi[3d]: so i think thats why he very painfully played73, 75

Move 0 + 79

[8:57] samuel_god[9k]: No way to live in there?

Move 0 + 84

[8:58] kingkimchi[3d]: where?

[8:58] samuel_god[9k]: In the whole bottom

Move 0 + 76

[8:58] samuel_god[9k]: What about, like, Q2?

[8:58] samuel_god[9k]: Or something I can't see

Move 0 + 77

[8:58] samuel_god[9k]: I never understand how people look at huge areas like that and can just know nothing lives

Move 0 + 76

[8:58] samuel_god[9k]: Seems impossible to read everything

[8:59] kingkimchi[3d]: well.. sometimes its impossible, sometimes its its not beneficial

Move 0 + 77

[8:59] kingkimchi[3d]: p2 is prob best move to invade bottom

Move 0 + 82

[9:00] Enumaris[7k]: vs large knight, I thought regular approach is fine? usually speaking

[9:00] kingkimchi[3d]: but white can prob just let it live a small corner and get sente

Move 0 + 76

[9:00] kingkimchi[3d]: which approach?

[9:00] Enumaris[7k]: like O3

Move 0 + 77

[9:01] Enumaris[7k]: cus if he kick and pincer..u should be able to do something to the corner..but maybe white too thick on left

Move 0 + 79

[9:02] kingkimchi[3d]: sometimes even if you can get two eyes, if white becomes too thick as a result

[9:02] kingkimchi[3d]: the gains and losses really balance out

[9:02] samuel_god[9k]: But

[9:02] samuel_god[9k]: If it's all white's anywa

[9:02] samuel_god[9k]: y

[9:02] samuel_god[9k]: Then why does thickness hurt?

[9:03] kingkimchi[3d]: keep in mind theres still a ko on left, black cant really afford to have two groups with no eye

Move 0 + 82

[9:04] kingkimchi[3d]: because of the ko on left, any white stone like l8 would be sente

Move 0 + 86

[9:04] kingkimchi[3d]: the odds arent good, but i just showed a very basic variation, obviously lee would do better

Move 0 + 81

[9:05] samuel_god[9k]: But alphago would defend better

[9:05] samuel_god[9k]: So it evens out

[9:05] kingkimchi[3d]: yeah, thats a whole different game, i cant speculate

Move 0 + 77

[9:06] kingkimchi[3d]: 77 really shocked me, i thought he would go p2, i.e. bottom white territory

[9:06] kingkimchi[3d]: black is really looking for some sort of opening to attach the top group of white

[9:07] kingkimchi[3d]: but he cant straight up

Move 0 + 84

[9:07] samuel_god[9k]: Why can't he straight up?

Move 0 + 76

[9:08] kingkimchi[3d]: he cant surround that group

Move 0 + 80

[9:08] Enumaris[7k]: Variation: can white choose this if u p2?

Move 0 + 78

[9:09] kingkimchi[3d]: q3 is better than r3

[9:09] Enumaris[7k]: ok

[9:09] kingkimchi[3d]: try it out in your own games and play around for a bit

Move 0 + 84

[9:09] Enumaris[7k]: Variation: would that go this way?

Move 0 + 78

[9:09] kingkimchi[3d]: but generally the response is q2 for corner

[9:10] samuel_god[9k]: Does that only apply when R7 is in place?

Move 0 + 85

[9:10] kingkimchi[3d]: yes r7

[9:10] Enumaris[7k]: ok

Move 0 + 78

[9:10] samuel_god[9k]: Seems like a very specific situation to try out in my games

Move 0 + 77

[9:11] Enumaris[7k]: r6 seems like the standard shape to use P2 on tho

[9:11] kingkimchi[3d]: true, but you have to know why play p2 in the first place

[9:11] Enumaris[7k]: I'm not familiar with using p2 on R7 except for one Chinese lecture I watched which said white is satisfied enough with the corner so P2 is not as good

[9:12] Enumaris[7k]: as it is for the case where white has R6

[9:12] kingkimchi[3d]: is the corner more valuable or the bottom center

[9:13] Enumaris[7k]: I'm just sayin what the commentary said heh

[9:14] kingkimchi[3d]: im not sure what was said, but you always play stone where you can get mroe value

[9:14] kingkimchi[3d]: black wants to invade bottom center more than bottom corner

Move 0 + 90

[9:16] kingkimchi[3d]: i think 89 showed Lee's hand, what i said earlier about the true purpose of the group of black on right is to attack white

[9:16] kingkimchi[3d]: its tempting to capture black here

Move 0 + 90

[9:17] kingkimchi[3d]: but its also very dangerous for white because both top left and and right group are not thick

Move 0 + 95

[9:17] samuel_god[9k]: Ouch

[9:17] kingkimchi[3d]: so thats why white 90 went to a seemingly weird place

Move 0 + 90

[9:18] kingkimchi[3d]: so i think this was a deliberate trap laid be Lee

[9:18] kingkimchi[3d]: to see how alpha would respond

[9:18] samuel_god[9k]: I feel like Lee kept thinking there would be some glitch or weak point

Move 0 + 91

[9:19] kingkimchi[3d]: well, thats the hope i have, that humans can learn and adapt much faster

[9:19] kingkimchi[3d]: if we can exploit certain weaknesses, but it seems unlikely against the vast computing power of alpha

Move 0 + 98

[9:19] samuel_god[9k]: I think that's unlikely. AlphaGo played itself for the equivalent of thousands of years.

Move 0 + 99

[9:19] samuel_god[9k]: In terms of how long it would take a human to play that many games

[9:20] samuel_god[9k]: So it can almost certainly learn and adapt faster

[9:20] kingkimchi[3d]: yep

[9:20] kingkimchi[3d]: i still think some of the top chinese pros would have a good chance at beating alpha

[9:21] kingkimchi[3d]: lee has never been good in early game

[9:21] kingkimchi[3d]: his talent showed towards that crazy ending

[9:21] kingkimchi[3d]: but alpha will not make mistakes in late game, so early game is where human understanding has to take an advantage

Move 0 + 111

[9:22] kingkimchi[3d]: heres a life death problem to look at

[9:23] kingkimchi[3d]: looks almost like a puzzle

[9:23] samuel_god[9k]: Maybe this will be the end of the "korean style."

[9:23] samuel_god[9k]: If the older Japanese style was more intuitive, left more open and the korean style is very tight, analysis based

[9:24] samuel_god[9k]: At least, sounds like the "japanese style" would be better against AlphaGo and be where humans are stronger. But maybe top pros will train against computers, so the "korean style" will get even more dominant

Move 0 + 122

[9:26] kingkimchi[3d]: it may be irrelevant stylistically, in the face of far superior computing power

Move 0 + 124

[9:28] kingkimchi[3d]: 123 pretty much showed that lee knows hes very behind

Move 0 + 131

[9:29] kingkimchi[3d]: the rest of the game was pretty much a desperation heave

Move 0 + 147

[9:31] kingkimchi[3d]: managed to make ko, but too many steps to approach it

[9:31] kingkimchi[3d]: and too many local ko threats for white

[9:31] kingkimchi[3d]: it did show alphas ko abilities though

[9:31] kingkimchi[3d]: i was hoping lee finished the game so we get to see alphas ability to evaluate ko threats

Move 0 + 148

[9:32] samuel_god[9k]: And what did you end up thinking about it?

[9:33] kingkimchi[3d]: 148 showed that alpha already calculated through all variations bottom

[9:33] kingkimchi[3d]: ko ability is good

[9:33] kingkimchi[3d]: accurately calculates how many threats are left

[9:33] kingkimchi[3d]: 148 shows that, its a win more move

[9:34] samuel_god[9k]: I thought AlphaGo doesn't play win more moves

[9:34] kingkimchi[3d]: well in the sense of reducing variance

[9:34] kingkimchi[3d]: which equates to higher win prob i think

Move 0 + 166

[9:37] samuel_god[9k]: If lee had won here, would he have won the game?

Move 0 + 173

[9:38] Enumaris[7k]: According to Chinese commentary no

Move 0 + 176

[9:38] kingkimchi[3d]: he woulda been ahead in territory, but look at what white gained from ko

[9:38] kingkimchi[3d]: j18

[9:39] kingkimchi[3d]: q12 and p12

[9:39] kingkimchi[3d]: anyways any questions

[9:39] kingkimchi[3d]: feels like its only been us 3

[9:40] kingkimchi[3d]: any variations to discuss

[9:40] kingkimchi[3d]: ill stay on another 15 mins

Move 0 + 181

[9:45] samuel_god[9k]: Thank you for reviewing!

[9:45] samuel_god[9k]: This game was chilling

[9:46] kingkimchi[3d]: yeah i hope i explained things ok, english not my first language, dont know english go vocab either

Move 0 + 182

[9:48] kingkimchi[3d]: game 2-3 were disasters for lee, but i think he can bounce back

[9:49] kingkimchi[3d]: to recap, k12 really put b on the backfoot this entire game, a directional error

[9:49] samuel_god[9k]: Would you think that another pro would be able to punish hiim for the rest of the game this badly after K12?

[9:49] samuel_god[9k]: Or was alphago exceptional?

[9:50] kingkimchi[3d]: i think i mentioned c11 vs c12

[9:50] kingkimchi[3d]: 99% people would play c12

[9:50] kingkimchi[3d]: its my first time seeing a move like c11

Move 0 + 35

[9:53] kingkimchi[3d]: i still dont think alpha is exceptional, its just the built in advantage of computing power, not making mistakes

Move 0 + 15

[9:55] kingkimchi[3d]: as early as move 15, showed pressure on lees shoulders

[9:55] kingkimchi[3d]: anyways play around a bit with the game, reach out to me with questions,

[9:55] kingkimchi[3d]: good night everyone