Game Finished

Move 62

OSINOV[20k]

16 points

②

walken![17k]

16.5 points

Unranked

Rules: Japanese

White wins by 0.5 points

Move 62

January 13, 2018

[9:31] walken![9k]: wow, so close

[9:31] walken![9k]: thanks for the game

[12:53] walken![8k]: after review I'm not sure if the upper left was supposed to be a seki

[12:53] Flopsy[4d]: yep, a half-pointer

[12:53] Flopsy[4d]: it's not a seki, and wasn't scored as such

[12:53] Flopsy[4d]: oh wait

[12:53] Flopsy[4d]: sorry

[12:53] Flopsy[4d]: it is a seki

[12:53] Flopsy[4d]: now that the liberties are filled up

[12:54] walken![8k]: yup :(

[12:54] walken![8k]: we both thought black was dead, and the autoscorer thought so too

[12:54] elx[5k]: Variation: And black owns

[12:54] walken![8k]: I'm not sure how the autoscorer works or when it doesn't

[12:55] Flopsy[4d]: don't trust it, especially with seki

[12:55] Flopsy[4d]: typically seki must be marked manually

[12:55] walken![8k]: anyway, I just wanted confirmation as I didn't read it correctly at first

[12:56] elx[5k]: Variation: It's not seki

[12:56] Flopsy[4d]: Variation: sending two, returning one

[12:57] Flopsy[4d]: that reverts to the original position, with one net prisoner for black

[12:57] Flopsy[4d]: still seki

[12:57] elx[5k]: Then it's ko

[12:57] elx[5k]: ko isn't equal to seki I guess

[12:57] Flopsy[4d]: depending on the rule set, it could be

[12:57] Flopsy[4d]: but typically this isn't ko either

[12:57] elx[5k]: I prefer absolute ko rule

[12:57] Flopsy[4d]: usually superko is not used

[12:58] elx[5k]: no position can be repeated with same side turn

[12:58] walken![8k]: what is supposed to happend with scoring if there is a ko at the very end of the game ?

[12:58] elx[5k]: that's different in various rule systems

[12:58] walken![8k]: ah no, it's not a scoring issue, one of the side is just prevented from playing there

[12:59] elx[5k]: Then you can't play A8 wit white

[13:00] elx[5k]: Variation: used superko. Now it's seki?

[13:01] Flopsy[4d]: white was in atari after the capture

[13:01] Flopsy[4d]: a8 is a really really bad move by black

[13:01] walken![8k]: 65 is different from 60 because it's now black's turn

[13:02] Flopsy[4d]: white can gain nothing by filling any of these liberties, is the point

[13:03] elx[5k]: So yes, with superko rule white can't take black stones

[13:03] walken![8k]: yes. a9 is not legal the second time around so white has to pass and that's the final position, with the two black stones still live

[13:03] walken![8k]: so I lost after all

[13:04] Flopsy[4d]: yes

[13:04] walken![8k]: (the other thing I don't understand is that the score estimate had me losing anyway, so I was really surprised to edge out a win)

[13:04] Flopsy[4d]: Variation: white typically just suicides like this under player-to-move superko

[13:05] Flopsy[4d]: can't a8 after going through the cycle

[13:05] Flopsy[4d]: so can't escape atari the second time around

[13:06] Flopsy[4d]: score estimation can be weird, anyway

[13:06] Flopsy[4d]: especially on a 19x19

[13:06] walken![8k]: yes. I probably trust it too much.

[13:07] Flopsy[4d]: SE is typically some sort of heat map kind of thing. It isn't middle-game aware, especially in the center and in fights

[13:07] walken![8k]: other question is after move 52, was it possible to get unconditional life ?

[13:07] Flopsy[4d]: at that point it's too late

[13:08] Flopsy[4d]: Variation: miai for black

[13:08] Flopsy[4d]: seki is unconditional life, it's just not a happy way to live

[13:08] walken![8k]: allright. no regrets then.

[13:08] walken![8k]: yes, it's like when you don't like your neighbors :)

[13:09] Flopsy[4d]: no territory to call your own :)

[13:09] elx[5k]: Black is filling his own liberties

[13:10] walken![8k]: all right, thanks for the comments.

[13:10] elx[5k]: So... what is final score here if we use area scoring?

[13:11] elx[5k]: White 6*3+1 on the right, and ...

[13:11] elx[5k]: 4*5-1 on left, not counting seki

[13:12] Flopsy[4d]: typically you'd score the live stones in area scoring

[13:12] Flopsy[4d]: even though it's seki

[13:12] Flopsy[4d]: and often the eye at a7 as well

[13:14] Flopsy[4d]: so it's more like 17 on the left for white

[13:14] Flopsy[4d]: and 2 for black in that seki

[13:15] elx[5k]: 35 total for white?

[13:15] Flopsy[4d]: 17 + 19, in area scoring, I think

[13:16] walken![8k]: 57 c8 kills black

[13:16] Flopsy[4d]: c8 is self-atari

[13:17] Flopsy[4d]: oh, at move 57

[13:17] walken![8k]: yes

[13:17] Flopsy[4d]: yes, butter to use that liberty while you can

[13:17] walken![8k]: you just need to know it's seki :)

[13:17] Flopsy[4d]: make 4 or 5 points, rather than 1

[13:17] Flopsy[4d]: yes

[13:18] Flopsy[4d]: seki robs all the territory, so there's usually a bigger difference than late late yose

[13:18] Flopsy[4d]: which is the quest for 1-pointers

[13:18] Flopsy[4d]: black is a deep beginner

[13:18] walken![8k]: and same, opponent should play 56 d4. actually should do it even if he doesn't know about the seki.

[13:19] Flopsy[4d]: I'm actually surprised that he tried b8

[13:20] walken![8k]: people get confused about scoring :)

[13:20] Flopsy[4d]: this black is a player who I'd say was making moves that are explicit passes

[13:20] Flopsy[4d]: scoring can be confusing, the more you attend to minute differences

[13:20] Flopsy[4d]: the basic rule of thumb is that seki is ignored when estimating with territory and prisoners

[13:21] elx[5k]: This variation says black wins by 4.5, if you let black take c4 point

[13:21] elx[5k]: But remove seki

[13:22] Flopsy[4d]: um, yes

[13:23] Flopsy[4d]: you have to fill 2 points of territory, you miss out on d5, and in that variation I think you have some of black's passes eliminated

[13:23] Flopsy[4d]: those moves where black fills his own territory for no good reason cost a point each

[13:24] elx[5k]: Only in japanese rules which are used here

[13:24] Flopsy[4d]: the scoring for this game is officially japanese

[13:24] Flopsy[4d]: I was quoting in that system, and comparing with the game score

[13:26] Flopsy[4d]: japanese is something of a default online

[13:26] Flopsy[4d]: western go associations often try some sort of compromise system that is easy to score whichever system you are used to.

[13:26] elx[5k]: Japanese favors risky states

[13:27] Flopsy[4d]: how so? Not especially, I think

[13:27] Flopsy[4d]: far more decisive is culture

[13:28] walken![8k]: well it's especially confusing given that when you think the game i done, you have to pass but your opponent may still sneak a move on you

[13:28] walken![8k]: so you feel like you have to defend even though you think it's all done

[13:29] Flopsy[4d]: well, that's just what happens when the two players disagree about life and death

[13:29] Flopsy[4d]: just because your opponent things something is forcing, doesn't mean you have to agree, of course :)

[13:30] Flopsy[4d]: as you gain in strength, these encore invasions tend to dissappear

[13:30] Flopsy[4d]: because again, the big attempts typically should have been tried earlier, if at all

[13:30] walken![8k]: right

[13:31] Flopsy[4d]: and players who have been consistently reading throughout the game should be in agreement about what's dead and what's alive at the end

[13:31] Flopsy[4d]: it's implicit in the way they've played

[13:35] walken![8k]: all right. time for me to grab some zZzzZzzz. ttyl :)

[13:35] Flopsy[4d]: later, then

[13:35] Flopsy[4d]: no problem