Demo Board

Move 1

Black[3p]

0 captures

White[3p]

0 captures

+ 6.5

Unranked

Rules: Japanese

Review by: ...

Move 0 + 9

May 6, 2018

[7:29] RobertT[5d]: think of both r8 and k4 as extensions from the corner

[7:29] RobertT[5d]: if you block q3 side then k4 is farther away

[7:29] RobertT[5d]: than if you blocked on r4 side

[7:29] RobertT[5d]: you look for the next stone of your color, not the farthest away

[7:30] RobertT[5d]: so r8 is the next stone, not q16

[7:30] RobertT[5d]: understand?

[7:30] walken[7k]: hmmm, makes sense I guess

[7:31] RobertT[5d]: also you're looking for moves on the side instead of the far away corner

[7:31] walken[7k]: so - for joseki selection the Q16 stone is mostly irrelevant then ?

Move 0 + 16

[7:31] RobertT[5d]: it is relevant

[7:31] RobertT[5d]: if there aren't extensions

[7:32] walken[7k]: I'm thinking the other joseki would work well if I had a stone around R13 or so

[7:32] walken[7k]: I can see that Q16 is too far

[7:32] RobertT[5d]: actually in this board position

[7:32] RobertT[5d]: the main reason why this joseki is bad

[7:32] RobertT[5d]: is because o3 makes the k4 stone useless

[7:33] RobertT[5d]: k4 wants to build a side framework

[7:33] RobertT[5d]: and o3 undercuts the territory it can make later

[7:33] walken[7k]: ah yes.

[7:33] RobertT[5d]: so if you remove that stone

[7:33] RobertT[5d]: and put it somewhere else

[7:33] RobertT[5d]: then this direction choice is fine

Move 0 + 13

[7:34] RobertT[5d]: another thing is this joseki ends in gote

[7:34] RobertT[5d]: so this joseki needs a side extension already

[7:34] RobertT[5d]: if not, white can just take away the extension with the sente

[7:35] walken[7k]: yes.

[7:35] RobertT[5d]: like if k4 doesn't exist, whites next move would be k3

[7:35] RobertT[5d]: or j3

Move 0 + 8

[7:36] walken[7k]: so when chosing the direction, I can block there only if I already have a stone on the border, that makes sense

[7:36] RobertT[5d]: yes

[7:36] walken[7k]: how much should I look at the other (right) border ?

[7:36] RobertT[5d]: what do you mean?

[7:37] walken[7k]: "wider side" sounds like I need to look at both sides :)

[7:37] walken[7k]: and right now I only understand what I'm looking for on the lower side

[7:37] RobertT[5d]: you're looking at both sides. its just the wider side is talking about side extensions

[7:38] RobertT[5d]: basically look at the 1/4th of the board that the joseki is played in for extensions

[7:38] RobertT[5d]: the opposite corner only come into play when there isn't a side extensions on either side

[7:38] walken[7k]: if we were at move 8 but I had an extra stone around R13, do I still block on Q3 ?

[7:39] RobertT[5d]: its the next extension stone

[7:39] RobertT[5d]: so r8

[7:39] RobertT[5d]: if you have a stone at r13

[7:39] RobertT[5d]: then the first extension stone is still r8

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: so in this case both sides have extensions

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: k4 and r8

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: k4 is wider so you block that side

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: if k4 wasnt there

[7:40] walken[7k]: all right, makes sense.

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: then only r8 has extension

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: so you bock r8 side

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: if r8 isn't there

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: then k4 is the side with an extension

[7:40] RobertT[5d]: so you block that side

[7:41] RobertT[5d]: if neither k4 or r8 is there

[7:41] RobertT[5d]: then you look at the corners

[7:41] RobertT[5d]: q16 stone is black and d4 is white

[7:41] RobertT[5d]: so you want the wall facing your q16 stone

[7:41] walken[7k]: I was confused because I felt like k4 is already part of the joseki - just put it there as answer to the knights approach

[7:41] walken[7k]: so I thought we were only looking at other stones for context

[7:42] RobertT[5d]: k4 is just a surrounding stone

[7:42] walken[7k]: err not k4 - I meant r8

[7:42] RobertT[5d]: ah

[7:43] RobertT[5d]: you look at the stones when the direction choice is made

[7:43] RobertT[5d]: not before starting the joseki

[7:43] RobertT[5d]: here you have a direction choice so you look at the stones on the board

[7:43] walken[7k]: yes, that makes sense now.

Move 0 + 13

[7:43] RobertT[5d]: before you start the joseki, that's a completely different direction choice

[7:43] RobertT[5d]: another tip for pincers

Move 0 + 16

[7:44] RobertT[5d]: usually you only want to pincer when you 1) have stones nearby (like k4 is here)

[7:44] RobertT[5d]: or 2) when the pincer side is obviously bigger than the other side

[7:44] RobertT[5d]: otherwise, you should just back off

[7:44] RobertT[5d]: (or in the case of 3-4 stones you can take the corner)

Move 0 + 6

[7:45] RobertT[5d]: so like here, you have k4 stone to help in any fight

[7:45] RobertT[5d]: so pincer is a good option

[7:45] RobertT[5d]: if k4 wasn't there

[7:45] walken[7k]: makes sense

[7:45] RobertT[5d]: then the bottom and the right are identical distance

[7:45] RobertT[5d]: so instead of pincer, you should just play o3

[7:45] walken[7k]: playing o3 would look like my stones are too concentrated and I'm giving up the right side

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: you're just stabilizing your stones

[7:46] walken[7k]: (I mean, since k4 is here)

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: its a very strong shape so you can tenuki easily

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: ah yes

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: with k4 there then o3 isn't good

[7:46] walken[7k]: makes sense. thanks.

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: o4 is sometimes possible with k4 there

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: if you can make a moyo

[7:46] RobertT[5d]: but because d4 stone is white

[7:47] RobertT[5d]: you can't make a moyo on the bottom easily

Move 0 + 7

[7:47] RobertT[5d]: black o3 is similar idea to if white play o3 instead of r6 and you responded with m4

[7:48] RobertT[5d]: it's kind of redundant since you already have a stone in that area

[7:48] walken[7k]: makes sense.

Move 0 + 8

[7:49] RobertT[5d]: whenever you have a stone on the side like k4, its kind of textbook position to pincer

[7:49] RobertT[5d]: same with the 3-4 stone

[7:49] RobertT[5d]: like if q4 was q3

[7:50] RobertT[5d]: and they approach

[7:50] RobertT[5d]: its the same, you pincer

[7:50] walken[7k]: so coming back to move 8, (I'm assuming R8 will stay there as I play it as part of the joseki), I should block on the left if I have a stone on the low side, somewhere between ~H and ~M columns

[7:50] RobertT[5d]: yep

[7:51] RobertT[5d]: the pincer stone can be in some other locations and you will still block that way

[7:51] RobertT[5d]: like if you did 2 space high pincer

[7:51] walken[7k]: if it's closer, better switch directions. and if it's farther, not sure if it still matters ? considering I also have the opposite corner on the right side

[7:51] RobertT[5d]: you would still block

[7:51] walken[7k]: ok

[7:51] walken[7k]: thanks

[7:52] RobertT[5d]: basically, I would block bottom side as long as k4 isn't closer than m4

[7:52] RobertT[5d]: but that would be a very odd distance for a black stone to be

[7:52] RobertT[5d]: np

[7:53] walken[7k]: much clearer now :)

[7:53] RobertT[5d]: cya